Felix

[PolarVortex]

Nothing left to say that hasn't already been said in previous threads and posts. Wish it didn't have to end this way. We may never see him on the mound again as a Mariner. If the team has anything to say about it, I imagine they will want to keep him on the DL (excuse me, 'IL'. SMH - everyone is looking for a new way to be offended) until the rosters expand in September.

 

[SeattleCoug]

Its incredibly easy to point out the failures, disappointments and just sheer stupidity that this franchise has projected over the last two decades.
But honestly one of the hardest things to watch happen is the complete destruction/demolition of Felix's career. He went from arguably borderline Hall of Famer to some to just a complete abomination on the mound within three years. I don't really care about how the franchise wasted his good years. Its incredibly sad and didn't need to be this way.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Its incredibly easy to point out the failures, disappointments and just sheer stupidity that this franchise has projected over the last two decades.
But honestly one of the hardest things to watch happen is the complete destruction/demolition of Felix's career. He went from arguably borderline Hall of Famer to some to just a complete abomination on the mound within three years. I don't really care about how the franchise wasted his good years. Its incredibly sad and didn't need to be this way.

Yeah it's quite a shame. Back in 2015 I figured that Felix was on track to be a Hall of Famer if he could just pitch at a decent level until his mid 30s.

I would've thought someone was crazy suggesting that 4 years from 2015, Felix would be pitching so awfully. I never imagined a scenario in which Felix would likely be done in the majors by 35.

After his first 6 starts I had a bit of faith that he could perhaps pitch well enough to stay in the rotation, he started using his curveball more which seemed to help, but his last two starts were awful and perhaps that was the result of hitters realizing that he was relying more on his curve.

I hope that eventually he figures something out and makes a miraculous comeback, but I just don't see that happening.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Nothing left to say that hasn't already been said in previous threads and posts. Wish it didn't have to end this way. We may never see him on the mound again as a Mariner. If the team has anything to say about it, I imagine they will want to keep him on the DL (excuse me, 'IL'. SMH - everyone is looking for a new way to be offended) until the rosters expand in September.

I keep getting confused by the IL thing. Whenever I see "IL" I always confuse it with the NFL's IR.

 

[wazzu31]

It is really sad. And maybe I’m just projecting how sad it is on how much I dislike Jerry and Servais but damn, with Servais criticism of Felix on his good starts I can completely understand why he would be stubborn and not trust them. Wish there would somehow have been a happy ending though but just doesn’t seem like it was going to possible with his skills diminishing at the exact time two guys come in who are like Jerry and Scott.

 

[seahawksfan234]

It is really sad. And maybe I’m just projecting how sad it is on how much I dislike Jerry and Servais but damn, with Servais criticism of Felix on his good starts I can completely understand why he would be stubborn and not trust them. Wish there would somehow have been a happy ending though but just doesn’t seem like it was going to possible with his skills diminishing at the exact time two guys come in who are like Jerry and Scott.

I understand Servais having "constructive criticism" but you're right on his comments regarding Felix. I mean shit, I've been saying Felix is done since 2017 and even I was at least optimistic about his first 6 starts.

Does he really think that criticizing a guy who used to be on the top of the world, got demoted to the back of the rotation and is finally showing hope is going to help?

When the "leader" of the team doesn't even express happiness for someone who (was) improving, that's not exactly inspirational. I know this is the majors, but teams award the "most improved" award for a reason.

If I was Felix I'd probably think: "Fuck this guy, it's almost like he's rooting for me to fail and can't even give me credit that I'm improving."

Baseball is probably more mental than any other sport, and the comments that Servais makes are not helpful.

I'm sure he's a lot of fun at parties. "Yeah I know you spent a lot of time organizing this party, but it's alright. You could have done better though."

 

[wazzu31]

I understand Servais having "constructive criticism" but you're right on his comments regarding Felix. I mean shit, I've been saying Felix is done since 2017 and even I was at least optimistic about his first 6 starts.

Does he really think that criticizing a guy who used to be on the top of the world, got demoted to the back of the rotation and is finally showing hope is going to help?

When the "leader" of the team doesn't even express happiness for someone who (was) improving, that's not exactly inspirational. I know this is the majors, but teams award the "most improved" award for a reason.

If I was Felix I'd probably think: "Fuck this guy, it's almost like he's rooting for me to fail and can't even give me credit that I'm improving."

Baseball is probably more mental than any other sport, and the comments that Servais makes are not helpful.

I'm sure he's a lot of fun at parties. "Yeah I know you spent a lot of time organizing this party, but it's alright. You could have done better though."

Well just put yourself in Felix’ shoes, that’s where my argument has always been. Jerry’s plan has never worked anywhere. So a plan that has yet to be successful comes in at the same time his talent has evaporated just makes it a toxic situation IMO. Could and should Felix have handled it better of course and he does shares blame but just as much should go onto Jerry and Scott’s plate. They take all the credit when Paxton, Marco and Leblanc were rolling but run away when they stink up the joint.

The Astros get brought up with going all in on analytics of pitching but BS, there staff has the most talent in the entire league. That irritates me nearly to the level of money ball working because the Red Sox won the World Series using “moneyball”. No they won the WS because they and the Yankees had the most talent and the WS sweep proved that. The A’s have been using moneyball but they’ve never made a WS under Beane and every single time they have made the playoffs they have traded for top end talent.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Well just put yourself in Felix’ shoes, that’s where my argument has always been. Jerry’s plan has never worked anywhere. So a plan that has yet to be successful comes in at the same time his talent has evaporated just makes it a toxic situation IMO. Could and should Felix have handled it better of course and he does shares blame but just as much should go onto Jerry and Scott’s plate. They take all the credit when Paxton, Marco and Leblanc were rolling but run away when they stink up the joint.

The Astros get brought up with going all in on analytics of pitching but BS, there staff has the most talent in the entire league. That irritates me nearly to the level of money ball working because the Red Sox won the World Series using “moneyball”. No they won the WS because they and the Yankees had the most talent and the WS sweep proved that. The A’s have been using moneyball but they’ve never made a WS under Beane and every single time they have made the playoffs they have traded for top end talent.

I think what people fail to realize about the "Moneyball" concept is that they think it's something that alone will make a team win. Is going after underrated or under appreciated players a successful strategy? Obviously. But that only helps on the periphery.

There is value in the effective use of analytics, but that alone isn't enough to construct a winning franchise. It's just one of the many ingredients.

 

[wazzu31]

I think what people fail to realize about the "Moneyball" concept is that they think it's something that alone will make a team win. Is going after underrated or under appreciated players a successful strategy? Obviously. But that only helps on the periphery.

There is value in the effective use of analytics, but that alone isn't enough to construct a winning franchise. It's just one of the many ingredients.

I wasn’t trying to get off my lawn guy. There is a role for analytics, there is never anything wrong with more data. It’s much like watching tape or reading scouting reports. But even during the movie moneyball they only highlight the under appreciated guys but they didn’t show their all stars and great pitching staff. The Mariners didn’t lose the 2002 AL west because of moneyball just like the A’s last year didn’t blow by the M’s because of moneyball. Talent nearly always trumps analytics.

 

[seattlefan75]

If your teams finishes 10-20 games below .500 or haven't made it to the playoffs in 20 years that is bad everything from analytics, players, managers, GMs. This losing run we are on pretty much sets the tone. We do not have any great players on this roster just a couple of good players that are under performing and mediocre players.

I hate it when people talk about Felix like he is the problem the mariners have no pitching prospects available to bring up they brought up Erik Swanson and he is getting ripped apart. Felix should be left alone

 

[wazzu31]

If your teams finishes 10-20 games below .500 or haven't made it to the playoffs in 20 years that is bad everything from analytics, players, managers, GMs. This losing run we are on pretty much sets the tone. We do not have any great players on this roster just a couple of good players that are under performing and mediocre players.

I hate it when people talk about Felix like he is the problem the mariners have no pitching prospects available to bring up they brought up Erik Swanson and he is getting ripped apart. Felix should be left alone

Your last part is maybe why I am not as harsh on Felix as I should be. Just the interviews on him come off, at least to me, like he is to blame for the failures or with the unrealistic expectation of he is the ace and should put an end to the losing streaks when he is on the mound.

 

[seahawksfan234]

I wasn’t trying to get off my lawn guy. There is a role for analytics, there is never anything wrong with more data. It’s much like watching tape or reading scouting reports. But even during the movie moneyball they only highlight the under appreciated guys but they didn’t show their all stars and great pitching staff. The Mariners didn’t lose the 2002 AL west because of moneyball just like the A’s last year didn’t blow by the M’s because of moneyball. Talent nearly always trumps analytics.

I was mostly talking about the book/concept. I enjoyed the movie, but the book is a lot better if you haven't read it. I've read almost every single one of Michael Lewis's books, they're really good.

I think we're on the same page with this.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Your last part is maybe why I am not as harsh on Felix as I should be. Just the interviews on him come off, at least to me, like he is to blame for the failures or with the unrealistic expectation of he is the ace and should put an end to the losing streaks when he is on the mound.

I've laid off Felix since it seems like he finally did try to make adjustments this season by throwing his curve more, and it worked the first 6 games. Prior to that I had no sympathy since he didn't seem willing to even entertain the idea of mixing things up. I don't know if a "grade 1 lat strain" is a phantom injury or not, but if he was pitching hurt, it could explain why he fell off his last two starts.

 

[PolarVortex]

If your teams finishes 10-20 games below .500 or haven't made it to the playoffs in 20 years that is bad everything from analytics, players, managers, GMs. This losing run we are on pretty much sets the tone. We do not have any great players on this roster just a couple of good players that are under performing and mediocre players.

But that has been the tone of this franchise since 1977. The only exception was the Lou Piniella era from 1994-2003 (although Lou was gone after 2002, Bob Melvin benefitted from the roster Piniella and Pat Gillick compiled). What has happened to this franchise before 1994 and after 2003 is exactly the same.

 

[SeattleCoug]

I think I'm over blaming much of anything on Felix. I do think if he could have figured his shit out in 2016 that could have been a playoff team but not sure that would have solved anything for this franchise. Other breaking the wretched streak, it wouldnt have made the future outlook any brighter. The bottom line is he has needed to make adjustments for years and didnt make them. Not everything or much should be blamed on him but I think its fair to hold him accountable for that. But I have more or less accepted his role a fringe MLB starter at this point so its fine.

 

[wazzu31]

I think I'm over blaming much of anything on Felix. I do think if he could have figured his shit out in 2016 that could have been a playoff team but not sure that would have solved anything for this franchise. Other breaking the wretched streak, it wouldnt have made the future outlook any brighter. The bottom line is he has needed to make adjustments for years and didnt make them. Not everything or much should be blamed on him but I think its fair to hold him accountable for that. But I have more or less accepted his role a fringe MLB starter at this point so its fine.

I think without question Felix deserves criticism and to be called out for his lack of evolving. I just am not a fan of, at least how I have taken it, Servais’ public comments that seem to put blame for the lack of success of the team on his shoulders. Felix didn’t buy into their philosophy but I totally see his point and it’s just unfortunate that his talent took a nose dive as the same time Jerry was hiring guys who look at numbers not development. But I also see the organization wanted him to evolve but it is hard to get one of the best of anything to change his/her approach when it doesn’t work. Which again goes back to the new philosophy happened when Felix went from ace talent to fringe starter talent.

Mel I think was solid but he isn’t an analytics guy and always complimented Felix’ work ethic on trying to change which I still think was lip service or protecting your highest paid player.

 

[SeattleCoug]

I think without question Felix deserves criticism and to be called out for his lack of evolving. I just am not a fan of, at least how I have taken it, Servais’ public comments that seem to put blame for the lack of success of the team on his shoulders. Felix didn’t buy into their philosophy but I totally see his point and it’s just unfortunate that his talent took a nose dive as the same time Jerry was hiring guys who look at numbers not development. But I also see the organization wanted him to evolve but it is hard to get one of the best of anything to change his/her approach when it doesn’t work. Which again goes back to the new philosophy happened when Felix went from ace talent to fringe starter talent.

Mel I think was solid but he isn’t an analytics guy and always complimented Felix’ work ethic on trying to change which I still think was lip service or protecting your highest paid player.

I agree that when Servais does decide to be critical it comes off as awkward and almost something you just laugh given his demeanor most of the time. Kind of like how they made Segura the obvious scape goat a couple of times for not hustling or not playing through in injury when that happened many different times throughout the year. Clearly we still dont know the whole story with Segura but obviously something happened and he was made out to be the bad guy and gone. Regardless with the way Servais manages and the way the team seems to respond to any kind of adversity makes it tough for me to ever defend him. If you look at all 4 years he's been here, the seasons are lost because a bad two week stretch turns into a bad month and just torpedoes the season. When your season continues to end because of your first slump of the year, thats just a bad look on the manager.

Regardless I guess what I'm trying to say is I think Felix could have handled things better back in 2015/2016, after that I don't think there was a reason to pin much on him. I don't like Servais at all, Dipoto I've really tried to give him every chance but as long he continues to think Servais is doing fine, then I consider that a black mark on him too.

 

[seattlefan75]

Does anybody know some of the things that actually went on in the locker room that led to segura, cano, and cruz not returning this season? Unlike football where everything gets put out there for everyone to know, baseball they really do a solid job of keeping things in house

 

[PolarVortex]

Does anybody know some of the things that actually went on in the locker room that led to segura, cano, and cruz not returning this season? Unlike football where everything gets put out there for everyone to know, baseball they really do a solid job of keeping things in house

No, but here is a bullet list of food for thought:
Dipoto jettisons 9 Hispanic players off of the 2018 roster.
Dr Lorena Martin says that Mariner front office is racist toward Hispanics.
Felix, for the first time in his career, feels lost and disrespected.

Maybe it is all just coincidence of timing...but maybe it isn't.

 

[Dolemite censored]

If your teams finishes 10-20 games below .500 or haven't made it to the playoffs in 20 years that is bad everything from analytics, players, managers, GMs. This losing run we are on pretty much sets the tone. We do not have any great players on this roster just a couple of good players that are under performing and mediocre players.

I hate it when people talk about Felix like he is the problem the mariners have no pitching prospects available to bring up they brought up Erik Swanson and he is getting ripped apart. Felix should be left alone

Great avi.