Donovan To Mariners

[wazzu31]

I don't disagree with that. But that is more about the entire off-season as a whole and a discussion that could be had every single off season with the Mariners. I would also argue if the M's brought the exact 2025 roster back they would be worse. My only point is that Donovan is an improvement from what the current roster was and gives them a better opportunity to win than it had before the trade.

How would they be worse had they brought back the entire team? Honest question where did they get better? Ferrer at the moment is worse than Ferguson, back up catcher is worse, at the moment 3B and 2B is worse. Having all 5 starters healthy is the only aspect of the team that has improved from game 7 and that’s just cause Woo is healthy. I guess one could argue Refsnyder being the RH DH is better than Cal at DH and Garver at C

 

[ulmax]

You're generous

I give it a fireable offense if Seattle misses the playoffs

If we can talk this way
It can't be afireing offence...

Cuz they were not given..
All they needed to do the job
(Money)
And yet are saying they will...

Do it anyway

The deadline is in july

 

[ulmax]

This team is not that bad prob need
A few hrs..

God smile on donavan..would help


And trade for a hrs hitter..

 

[wazzu31]

They are different because they have a better player that has the ability to play multiple positions. Why would they be better with Ben Williamson? Look, take the best case scenario for the season: Emerson arrives and shows he belongs wins a rookie of the year that's awesome! Young improves becomes everyday no doubt second baseman that's awesome! Raley has bounce back year that's awesome! Canzone replicates a very good season that's awesome! If all those things happen you are describing a situation in which the Mariners have too many good players and you are upset about it. If any one of those things don't happen or there is an injury you have a guy that can play that role and do it well and in many cases (yet to be seen) do it better than they can. Dude it wasn't even a guarantee Ben Williamson would make the team especially if Emerson is ready to go.

But as I’ve pointed out, those “multiple positions” he plays is useless cause dude can’t hit lefties and they have two set in stone platoons, two left handed rookies or defacto rookie and the most expensive position player at the other one. Raley is a better OF with more power and speed. Canzone is a better DH. Emerson and Young will get the playing time and platooning them with the lefty/right splits puts all 3 of them in positions to fail. He can’t play SS so that means one of the rookies is going to have to slide into SS which again is idiotic.

No it’s not having too many good players, dude wastes a roster spot. Too many good players means Young, Emerson, Raley or Canzone is coming up to bat in the 8th and they bring a lefty in, you are fine with going to anyone on the bench. Which this move doesn’t. The gist is on this team there is no difference between him and Arraez yet Arraez is mocked yet Donovan is treated as though he’s a real star.

He is redundant and nowhere near good enough to make the roster redundant. You can have redundancy if all of those players have 2 plus tools but right now redundancy is all of them have 1.5 tools. Redundancy can work like the 80’s and 2010’s Royals and Cardinals.

In games that he doesn’t start he is the second to last guy off the bench cause you aren’t pinch hitting him for anyone, pinch running him for anyone nor replacing anyone defensively. Which make his roster spot objectively better used for someone else. In July if Emerson or Young don’t improve then ok then makes sense cause Young or Emerson could be sent down, then do this trade cause you’d already have Rivas, Bliss or Arroyo or maybe Wisdom shows something in Tacoma. And we already saw the Mariners were competing with themselves for Donovan and nothing will change so it’s not like that trade won’t be there.

Your Williamson argument would reinforce the Donovan doesn’t fit. If Williamson didn’t make the club cause Emerson killed it then you have Donovan splitting time with Young when neither should be facing lefties.

Donovan is a good player who is good at his role in St Louis but St Louis wasn’t competing for anything nor running multiple platoons. But pretending this is some great move to me is foolish cause for how this current roster is constructed Rivas is the much better option, not to mention they now have a huge hole in the organization as they do not have a major league 3B for the foreseeable future. Cause to counter your best case scenario, worst case scenario Emerson is Jackson Holliday in his first go around and Young is mid August Young, now you still have a for sure hole at one when Williamson flat out proved he was a viable number 9 hitter in the bigs as a rookie just ironically he had no power.

I do truly hope I am wrong and he becomes Naylor 2.0 and not Adam Frazier 2.0 or who knows maybe Jerry has a massive trade involving Young or Raley or maybe both that completely blows up my entire point which is roster construction cause IMO Donovan doesn’t plug any of the roster holes but we shall see

 

[NWinAZ]

I don't disagree with that. But that is more about the entire off-season as a whole and a discussion that could be had every single off season with the Mariners. I would also argue if the M's brought the exact 2025 roster back they would be worse. My only point is that Donovan is an improvement from what the current roster was and gives them a better opportunity to win than it had before the trade.

Agreed. I am just disappointed in their lack of urgency. Not shocked since I have been waiting for the same thing since '77, but this year it stung even more.

 

[unlvmariners]

How would they be worse had they brought back the entire team? Honest question where did they get better? Ferrer at the moment is worse than Ferguson, back up catcher is worse, at the moment 3B and 2B is worse. Having all 5 starters healthy is the only aspect of the team that has improved from game 7 and that’s just cause Woo is healthy. I guess one could argue Refsnyder being the RH DH is better than Cal at DH and Garver at C

Regression... I think you are mixing up my arguments a bit. I didn't say the current roster is better than 2025 roster, I'm saying if you brought the entire 2025 team back for 2026 and don't add to it they wouldn't be as good as they were, IMO. Ferrer, Refsnyder a garbage backup catcher have nothing to do with that. That is an entirely different conversation about how this organization manages roster construction and the reasons behind their choices.

 

[unlvmariners]

But as I’ve pointed out, those “multiple positions” he plays is useless cause dude can’t hit lefties and they have two set in stone platoons, two left handed rookies or defacto rookie and the most expensive position player at the other one. Raley is a better OF with more power and speed. Canzone is a better DH. Emerson and Young will get the playing time and platooning them with the lefty/right splits puts all 3 of them in positions to fail. He can’t play SS so that means one of the rookies is going to have to slide into SS which again is idiotic.

No it’s not having too many good players, dude wastes a roster spot. Too many good players means Young, Emerson, Raley or Canzone is coming up to bat in the 8th and they bring a lefty in, you are fine with going to anyone on the bench. Which this move doesn’t. The gist is on this team there is no difference between him and Arraez yet Arraez is mocked yet Donovan is treated as though he’s a real star.

He is redundant and nowhere near good enough to make the roster redundant. You can have redundancy if all of those players have 2 plus tools but right now redundancy is all of them have 1.5 tools. Redundancy can work like the 80’s and 2010’s Royals and Cardinals.

In games that he doesn’t start he is the second to last guy off the bench cause you aren’t pinch hitting him for anyone, pinch running him for anyone nor replacing anyone defensively. Which make his roster spot objectively better used for someone else. In July if Emerson or Young don’t improve then ok then makes sense cause Young or Emerson could be sent down, then do this trade cause you’d already have Rivas, Bliss or Arroyo or maybe Wisdom shows something in Tacoma. And we already saw the Mariners were competing with themselves for Donovan and nothing will change so it’s not like that trade won’t be there.

Your Williamson argument would reinforce the Donovan doesn’t fit. If Williamson didn’t make the club cause Emerson killed it then you have Donovan splitting time with Young when neither should be facing lefties.

Donovan is a good player who is good at his role in St Louis but St Louis wasn’t competing for anything nor running multiple platoons. But pretending this is some great move to me is foolish cause for how this current roster is constructed Rivas is the much better option, not to mention they now have a huge hole in the organization as they do not have a major league 3B for the foreseeable future. Cause to counter your best case scenario, worst case scenario Emerson is Jackson Holliday in his first go around and Young is mid August Young, now you still have a for sure hole at one when Williamson flat out proved he was a viable number 9 hitter in the bigs as a rookie just ironically he had no power.

I do truly hope I am wrong and he becomes Naylor 2.0 and not Adam Frazier 2.0 or who knows maybe Jerry has a massive trade involving Young or Raley or maybe both that completely blows up my entire point which is roster construction cause IMO Donovan doesn’t plug any of the roster holes but we shall see

Gotta say I don't see your point and never will. Donovan improves the team more than Ben Williamson does plain and simple. The only thing I agree with you on is being LH hitter heavy in the infield. You are still arguing a point of Donovan being useless only if everyone else on the team is performing at a high level which is a problem every team should want. I sure would love for Donovan to be useless because all the question marks (and there are plenty of them) are playing great. I'd choose Donovan to pinch hit for someone even against a lefty over Ben Williamson every single time.

 

[unlvmariners]

Agreed. I am just disappointed in their lack of urgency. Not shocked since I have been waiting for the same thing since '77, but this year it stung even more.

Every Mariners fan should be. With how close they were you would think they would be going all in on every player that could help them and instead they backed themselves into a corner. This current roster is not ideal, imo. I do think this team is a playoff team but I'm really not sure how good they are and nobody is cause we are doing the effin question mark thing again with too many positions again.

 

[wazzu31]

Regression... I think you are mixing up my arguments a bit. I didn't say the current roster is better than 2025 roster, I'm saying if you brought the entire 2025 team back for 2026 and don't add to it they wouldn't be as good as they were, IMO. Ferrer, Refsnyder a garbage backup catcher have nothing to do with that. That is an entirely different conversation about how this organization manages roster construction and the reasons behind their choices.

Ok, my bad. I will say a lot of the stuff you are saying I am conflating with a lot of what other people are online are saying so if it is coming off wrong this isn’t a you thing it’s a me projecting the arguments I’ve made against Mariners content creators for past 2 days.

 

[wazzu31]

Gotta say I don't see your point and never will. Donovan improves the team more than Ben Williamson does plain and simple. The only thing I agree with you on is being LH hitter heavy in the infield. You are still arguing a point of Donovan being useless only if everyone else on the team is performing at a high level which is a problem every team should want. I sure would love for Donovan to be useless because all the question marks (and there are plenty of them) are playing great. I'd choose Donovan to pinch hit for someone even against a lefty over Ben Williamson every single time.

Which is a fair argument except there is only one position he is decent at and that’s 2B. Every other position he is basically Dom Canzone. What I don’t get is the argument is this trade good because he is insurance in case one of the other positions falls flat. If they are anticipating that then they should’ve traded for someone better or traded him to be their starting 2B. And it’s hard to argue trading for insurance while trading away their pitching insurance. IMO it’s beyond dumb to try to have Hancock stretch back out and be the 6th starter. He needs to stay in the bullpen cause I still firmly believe he is a high leverage arm.

Him pinch hitting for Ben Williamson against a righty I would agree, pinch hit against a lefty not a chance and he isn’t on the team. Which is the problem with Donovan being brought in as a utility guy. Cool, you can pinch hit him but if he gets on you have to pull him for a pinch runner. In a close game if he isn’t at 2B you will want to put a defensive replacement in for him.

 

[NWinAZ]

Every Mariners fan should be. With how close they were you would think they would be going all in on every player that could help them and instead they backed themselves into a corner. This current roster is not ideal, imo. I do think this team is a playoff team but I'm really not sure how good they are and nobody is cause we are doing the effin question mark thing again with too many positions again.

So true

 

[unlvmariners]

Ok, my bad. I will say a lot of the stuff you are saying I am conflating with a lot of what other people are online are saying so if it is coming off wrong this isn’t a you thing it’s a me projecting the arguments I’ve made against Mariners content creators for past 2 days.

Which is fair, most of these content podcast guys are acting like this move absolves them from a shaky off-season and everything is good to go. The reality is from my point of view this roster on paper is worse than the roster at the end of 2025. However the current roster, as is, has the upside to be really good but a lot of assumptions have to be correct for that to happen and they have to stay healthy because an injury to the wrong guy would be a big problem.

 

[jerseyhawksfan79]

This team is not that bad prob need
A few hrs..

God smile on donavan..would help


And trade for a hrs hitter..

Absolutely a fireable offense. Trading away multiple prospects better have a solid return which it did not. Donovan meh but needed another player in return either from STL or Tampa. Neither happened cause Jerry is a fuking idiot.

 

[jerseyhawksfan79]

Regression... I think you are mixing up my arguments a bit. I didn't say the current roster is better than 2025 roster, I'm saying if you brought the entire 2025 team back for 2026 and don't add to it they wouldn't be as good as they were, IMO. Ferrer, Refsnyder a garbage backup catcher have nothing to do with that. That is an entirely different conversation about how this organization manages roster construction and the reasons behind their choices.

The 2025 team would make the 2026 playoffs and that is where you would see the regression.

 

[unlvmariners]

Which is a fair argument except there is only one position he is decent at and that’s 2B. Every other position he is basically Dom Canzone. What I don’t get is the argument is this trade good because he is insurance in case one of the other positions falls flat. If they are anticipating that then they should’ve traded for someone better or traded him to be their starting 2B. And it’s hard to argue trading for insurance while trading away their pitching insurance. IMO it’s beyond dumb to try to have Hancock stretch back out and be the 6th starter. He needs to stay in the bullpen cause I still firmly believe he is a high leverage arm.

Him pinch hitting for Ben Williamson against a righty I would agree, pinch hit against a lefty not a chance and he isn’t on the team. Which is the problem with Donovan being brought in as a utility guy. Cool, you can pinch hit him but if he gets on you have to pull him for a pinch runner. In a close game if he isn’t at 2B you will want to put a defensive replacement in for him.

Well he's not only on the team for "insurance" he's on the team to play everyday and add length to your lineup, I would assume be the lead off hitter. He is taking the pressure off needing youth to be successful right away because if they aren't they are screwed. Yes you gave up pitching depth of an unproven player to acquire him. So you can look at it as they traded away insurance to acquire an insurance plan and a better offence all in one. That sounds like the better deal to me. I just will never understand the argument to prefer worse players over better ones.

I agree with you about the pitching depth and Hancock as he could be an excellent bullpen arm imo and I hope they don't do that and have him stay in the pen. I think the SP depth is one of the scarier parts of the current roster cause I don't think they can cover it properly at this point.

 

[wazzu31]

Which is fair, most of these content podcast guys are acting like this move absolves them from a shaky off-season and everything is good to go. The reality is from my point of view this roster on paper is worse than the roster at the end of 2025. However the current roster, as is, has the upside to be really good but a lot of assumptions have to be correct for that to happen and they have to stay healthy because an injury to the wrong guy would be a big problem.

I 100% agree this team has the potential to be better than last year but I’m also coming from, we just came off two months of people saying they had to get Geno or Marte cause they can’t rely on Emerson and Young but even with Donovan the team is still relying heavily on Emerson and Young/Arroyo being good.

 

[wazzu31]

Well he's not only on the team for "insurance" he's on the team to play everyday and add length to your lineup, I would assume be the lead off hitter. He is taking the pressure off needing youth to be successful right away because if they aren't they are screwed. Yes you gave up pitching depth of an unproven player to acquire him. So you can look at it as they traded away insurance to acquire an insurance plan and a better offence all in one. That sounds like the better deal to me. I just will never understand the argument to prefer worse players over better ones.

I agree with you about the pitching depth and Hancock as he could be an excellent bullpen arm imo and I hope they don't do that and have him stay in the pen. I think the SP depth is one of the scarier parts of the current roster cause I don't think they can cover it properly at this point.

It’s not arguing worse players, it’s arguing I don’t want marginally better player being fed to me like they are good players. If they traded Young for him then sure, but for this team, Donovan is marginally better than Leo Rivas

 

[unlvmariners]

It’s not arguing worse players, it’s arguing I don’t want marginally better player being fed to me like they are good players. If they traded Young for him then sure, but for this team, Donovan is marginally better than Leo Rivas

Well it really it comes down to how you view Donovan’s role. If you view him as a bench player on par with Leo Rivas then yes weird trade and obviously a dumb trade. I view him as an everyday player that makes your offense better. It relieves the need to rely on young unproven players, it doesn’t relieve the need/reliance completely you just need less of the younger players to succeed right away. You are hedging your bets on the young guys and also providing significant offensive help.

 

[PolarVortex]

But as I’ve pointed out, those “multiple positions” he plays is useless cause dude can’t hit lefties and they have two set in stone platoons, two left handed rookies or defacto rookie and the most expensive position player at the other one. Raley is a better OF with more power and speed. Canzone is a better DH. Emerson and Young will get the playing time and platooning them with the lefty/right splits puts all 3 of them in positions to fail. He can’t play SS so that means one of the rookies is going to have to slide into SS which again is idiotic.

No it’s not having too many good players, dude wastes a roster spot. Too many good players means Young, Emerson, Raley or Canzone is coming up to bat in the 8th and they bring a lefty in, you are fine with going to anyone on the bench. Which this move doesn’t. The gist is on this team there is no difference between him and Arraez yet Arraez is mocked yet Donovan is treated as though he’s a real star.

He is redundant and nowhere near good enough to make the roster redundant. You can have redundancy if all of those players have 2 plus tools but right now redundancy is all of them have 1.5 tools. Redundancy can work like the 80’s and 2010’s Royals and Cardinals.

In games that he doesn’t start he is the second to last guy off the bench cause you aren’t pinch hitting him for anyone, pinch running him for anyone nor replacing anyone defensively. Which make his roster spot objectively better used for someone else. In July if Emerson or Young don’t improve then ok then makes sense cause Young or Emerson could be sent down, then do this trade cause you’d already have Rivas, Bliss or Arroyo or maybe Wisdom shows something in Tacoma. And we already saw the Mariners were competing with themselves for Donovan and nothing will change so it’s not like that trade won’t be there.

Your Williamson argument would reinforce the Donovan doesn’t fit. If Williamson didn’t make the club cause Emerson killed it then you have Donovan splitting time with Young when neither should be facing lefties.

Donovan is a good player who is good at his role in St Louis but St Louis wasn’t competing for anything nor running multiple platoons. But pretending this is some great move to me is foolish cause for how this current roster is constructed Rivas is the much better option, not to mention they now have a huge hole in the organization as they do not have a major league 3B for the foreseeable future. Cause to counter your best case scenario, worst case scenario Emerson is Jackson Holliday in his first go around and Young is mid August Young, now you still have a for sure hole at one when Williamson flat out proved he was a viable number 9 hitter in the bigs as a rookie just ironically he had no power.

I do truly hope I am wrong and he becomes Naylor 2.0 and not Adam Frazier 2.0 or who knows maybe Jerry has a massive trade involving Young or Raley or maybe both that completely blows up my entire point which is roster construction cause IMO Donovan doesn’t plug any of the roster holes but we shall see

As I said, we could have resigned Ty France for the same amount of money, had equal or better offensive production, hits both lefties and righties equally, is almost as versatile of a position player (2nd base, 1st base, LF, RF), and we would have had to give up a good young pitching prospect to acquire him.

 

[wazzu31]

As I said, we could have resigned Ty France for the same amount of money, had equal or better offensive production, hits both lefties and righties equally, is almost as versatile of a position player (2nd base, 1st base, LF, RF), and we would have had to give up a good young pitching prospect to acquire him.

My thing is I jokingly equated his one tool to Arraez cause the analytics nerds in Seattle hate him like he is Hitler, but are trying to make me think Donovan is better because he has an extra mitt. Then the Giants flat out reaffirmed my joke by choosing Arraez to play 2B over trading for Donovan.

And I still think Jerry was bullied into it by fan and all of the baseball people who kept saying trying to make it seem like Donovan is a real all star not an all star because every team has to have one.

And it’s just so odd that a player like Donovan cost more than every player traded outside of Baz to the Orioles but at least you can squint and see that if healthy Baz makes the Orioles contenders.