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Disappointing

Hit-n-Run

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After a nice resurgence in May and June the bottom has fell out. The title of this thread sums it up for me.

Injuries can be used as an excuse, but it's a lame one at best. All teams have injuries every season. It's a constant that has to be accounted for in organizational depth. If you can't buy it, you better know how to build it. That's the problem in a nutshell for the Reds.

The trades this FO made can be called into question, but the spiral toward mediocrity didn't begin with the trade acquisitions. It began with extending players for either too long or not getting any production after inking the deal. IMO, the quickest way to drown a small market organization is to set the payroll in concrete.

Votto is possibly carving out a HOF career. But at age 34 he is looking like a great hitter in decline. He still has 5 more years at $25M per and $7M buyout of a 6th remaining. The Brandon Phillips, Devon Mesoraco, and Homer Bailey extensions are nearly all in the rear view mirror, but Votto isn't going anywhere.

Signing a first baseman long term handcuffs an organization. Sure it's a position that an aging player can handle in the NL, but it's also a position that a younger, less expensive, non-athletic pure hitter can play. Jesse Winker or Yonder Alonso would be two good examples.

Votto signed two extensions with the Reds. The 1st would have ended after 2013 and he signed the $250M deal before the first ended. The first extension should have had option years that carried it into 2014-15. The Reds have done a poor job of negotiating extensions when it comes to option years. The player gets financial security by extending early and without option years the team gains very little.
 

eburg5000

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3 days left before the trade deadline. I wonder if the Reds are going to do anything. I have never liked trading players like this in the middle of the season anyway; I always thought , you should dance with the one you brought. But that is just the way baseball has changed in the last 30+ years.
 

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Teams make trades for different reasons. You'd like to think your team is trading to upgrade and not lose cheaper. I think the Reds were trying to upgrade the farm by trading players they weren't going to be able to afford. So the argument can be made they were upgrading and losing cheaper.

The Reds typically lock up 2-3 players out of their core group. It proved to be disastrous with Homer and Mesoraco. Not only did both of them become fixtures on the DL, but it meant they weren't going to be signing the other guys. They had a coral of horses to chose from, but ultimately the horses they chose came up lame.

In all fairness to the Reds decision making most of the guys they traded haven't faired that well. For the money they commanded most of them wouldn't look like good signings today. Aroldis Chapman is the one guy that remains a top performer, but a 90+ losing team shouldn't be employing the highest payed closer in the game. Nevertheless feel free to be a critic of the way they handled the Chapman trade, it wasn't a good transaction.

IMO, Harvey was acquired to be flipped at the deadline. So if he's not traded it would be a failure from a team strategy standpoint. Keeping him may translate into more wins this season, but beyond that it serves no useful purpose. The reality is even if he's traded there may not be a return value that's going to make a difference. It's somewhat a crap shoot looking for a prospect the Reds see hidden potential in.

Eugenio Suarez was one such prospect that most scouts saw his ceiling as a UT guy. It doesn't work out the way Suarez has very often, but that's why you want some sort of return for departing players. You can't win the lottery if you don't play.
 

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Rookie Davis is the only one left from that Chapman trade. I don't think he will ever be relevant to this team any. The Reds picked up Mason Williams from the Yankee's, I think as a FA, and in 2 games he has already produced more than any of the players we got in the Chapman trade.

If they trade Harvey, Do you think the Reds will still go with a 6 man rotation. It might be hard because Mahle looks like he may have hit the wall, and they will probably be shutting him down soon. I figure if all this happens Mella will get a start
 

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I don't think the Reds have any intentions on having a prolonged 6 man rotation. I believe it's biding time waiting to trade Harvey without disrupting everyone else's routine.

IMO, The timing of when Homer ran out of rehab days expired before they could trade Harvey and the 6 man is how the club decided to deal with it short term.

Mahle is scheduled to make his next start despite the off day, but that could always change. If he's not pitching in the Majors, he's pitching in AAA. He threw 164 innings last year, so he's well short of his shut down for IP. I'd guess they want him to throw 180 innings this year, so unless injured he's pitching somewhere.

Mella hasn't pitched in 9 days. He was called up on his day to pitch in the minors and has sat 4 days since. I guess he was brought up to replace Jackson Stephens in the long man role, but hasn't been used. I thought he might have gotten into the game Disco exited early, but Riggleman opted otherwise.

I thought it was strange Riggleman used Romano in relief Saturday the 28th after starting the 25th. Now he's scheduled to start again Wednesday the 1st in Detroit.
Meanwhile Mella has been collecting dust.
 

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I think the Reds lack of depth is getting ready to catch up with them. I believe it will be hard for them to win 70.

I'm wondering how long they are planning to leave Schebler down in AAA? If he can't throw yet, He can still let him come of the bench and hit.
 

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This has been a really disappointing road trip, But I'm not surprised. To many bad things has happened sense the All Star break. Even though the outfield is hitting , they don't put much fear in the opposing pitcher. Votto, Scooter and Barnhart are not hitting the ball well.
Now the Reds are heading to NY, where they will be facing to of the best starting pitchers in baseball.. Not sure things are going to get any better..

Shame on Votto for getting hit on the knee with a 97 mile per hour fast ball, and being upset about it
 

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June and July were winning months, but August has gotten off to a rocky start. The schedule doesn't get any easier the rest of the month, so this could be an ugly month.

I'd agree the outfield doesn't have a current impact bat. Ervin and Mason Williams have been hitting, but when you have those two and Billy Hamilton in the same lineup it's weak hitting OF. More than one of those three is too many. Billy Hamilton is the weakest of the three.
 

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It's hard to understand how Scott Schebler was sent on a rehab assignment when he couldn't throw. He ran out of rehab days and still can't throw. There's obviously something more to his shoulder injury than what is known.

Louisville's season ends around Labor Day, so if he's not healed soon there's not enough time to go on another rehab assignment. At this point I don't think anyone knows when he's going to be ready.

For all practical purposes he may already be done for the season. They may decide to error on the side of caution.
 

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They may bring him up to pinch hit in Sept. .He can hit but just can't throw. Or at least that was what was said a few weeks ago. then again they can just let it heal.

Williams and Mason are playing for the 4th outfield spot next year. I might as well say Tucker is to, but so far he hasn't showed much. but also he hasn't had much of a chance. Williams by what I have seen so far plays the best defense. I haven't seen him throw yet so I don't know about his arm.

If they do make Tucker or Williams the 4th outfielder next year ,that is going to make a heavy lefty hitting team. So that gives Erwin some advantage.

I wish John would start posting again. I miss his input. Not to mention there are only the 2 of us left posting.
 

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They have Dilson Herrera working out in the OF also. It's been said that the FO wants to get a better look at him as well.

So it's Dixon, Herrera, Tucker, Williams, and Ervin getting a chance to show what they can do. It's probable that only a couple of those five will still be on the 40 man roster next year.

Herrera, Tucker, and, Williams don't have options remaining. So they either make the club or get released somewhere along the way.

I think Ervin has the inside track. They like Dixon because he can play IF and OF, but he can't hit a lick.
 

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I don't think Riggleman and the FO have been on the same page at times.

A good example was when he said Winker was out of the 4 man OF mix. Within a couple days he was back in the lineup. I think the FO over ruled Riggleman on that one.

There's been a few other things Riggleman has said was going to happen and it changed without any explanation.
 

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After two nice starts Homer returned to an all too familiar performance last night. For the most part the early damage was the Mets being aggressive and hitting the ball where they ain't.

After the game Homer said the Mets being aggressive early in the count went against the scouting report. I'm not sure why the Reds thought the Mets would sit back and take pitches against Homer. Homer is always around the plate and generally pitches inside the strike zone. Doesn't walk very many hitters and is often ahead in the count. Sounds like a pitcher the Mets would be aggressive against to me.
 

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I wonder why Hamilton is getting so much playing time. I would like to see what Williams can do in centerfield, that's where he played in AAA

The Reds has to be the worst team in baseball going from 2nd to home on a base hit. With the way this team is hitting right now they have to score when they get the chance.

After the 6th hitter in the lineup, there are no run producers or any hitting threat left. I'm pretty sure the opposing pitcher knows this to. This is where I think not having Duvall hurts the most.
 

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Rob Stephenson is scheduled to start the wrap up in NY. With the doubleheader last Saturday both Harvey and Disco would be going on 4 days rest.

Riggleman seems to be in favor of a 5 man rotation, but I think the Reds brass want to take a look at a couple guys. Riggleman is trying to win and the FO is trying to balance winning and rebuilding.

So for now we're back to a 6 man rotation. Could be for the rest of the season.... I've given up trying to figure out "Who's on first?"

Stephenson is having his best minor league season since being drafted. If he brings it with him to NY I wouldn't think he'd be optioned back.

Time is running out to evaluate some of these guys. I think Stephenson has MLB talent. He's been slow to develop, but that has mostly been fastball command. He has quality secondary pitches. If he has gained better command of his #1 he'll look like a different pitcher moving forward.
 

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This is where I think not having Duvall hurts the most.

I think it's more missing Winker and Schebler than Duvall. Both of those guys were having solid offensive seasons. If they were in the lineup and continuing to produce we wouldn't even notice Duvall was gone. Well.... at least until Winker drops a flyball.

When Duvall does hit he does a lot of damage. The problem is he doesn't do much in between. It's feast or famine with him.
 

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I wish John would start posting again


I don't know what happened, but I'm sure it wasn't a coincidence someone else posted a followup comment to John's. I got the impression it was carried over from another furum.

That was the problem with the CBS forum. It often becomes personal and vindictive. I've never understood why some people can't simply agree to disagree. It's not worth all the fuss.
 

eburg5000

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I have never posted on any other SportsHoopla forum. I believe John will venture back someday.

Stephenson Only gave up 3 hits and 3runs, but he walked 5. I didn't see what his pitch count was. Looks like the same old Stephenson so far. I figure he will get anther start, but he better start showing he can pitch up here in the bigs. The offense was dismal...2 and 7 road trip. not very good
 

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Ultimately Stephenson has to throw more fastballs and they need to be quality strikes. He left the game after 76 pitches and only 19 of those were fastballs.

The 5 walks is misleading with 2 of them being intentional. The fact that both were against a .224 hitter that hits even less versus RHP didn't help his pitching line.

I thought Riggleman intentionally walking Mesoraco in the 4th was the wrong call. I also thought pulling him after 4 was the wrong call. If you're trying to evaluate the kid you want to see how he responds after that inning and a talk from the bench.

Stephenson failing is the same as the entire organization failing. It's not as if he's the only pitching prospect that struggles with command that we've seen the last couple years.

Rookie pitchers walking batters is as common as bad base running in this organization. What we're seeing doesn't bode well moving forward.
 
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