Change the System?

[fanwagon]

So dudes, Ive been reading lots of articles/tweets about how Lavi's system is to 'blame' for our ousting from the playoffs this year. I've seen it pop up in various threads for the past week or so. I'm just curious what your opinions on this matter are and what changes you'd make, if any. I figured it might be worth a thread. (so we dont clog up awaz's draft/cap threads)

I am not in favor of a wholesale change as some people seem to want. Not even a little bit. This team showed flashes, actually, extended periods of absolute brilliance this year. I think a few minor tweeks to personnel should do the trick, as long as they are the right tweeks. Getting another Dman would be one of them. Allowing some of the young guys to develop a little more an understand their defensive responsibilities should help. (not really even a tweek)

This team's core is built around Lavi's aggressive system. To change it's direction now would be the dumbest decision this team could make. Give it AT LEAST 2 more years to allow the young guys, bryz, etc to grow into it. Make the call then. To change now would be a terrible idea. Keep attacking. Its exciting to watch and is dominant when the boys are in sync.

Anyway thats my $.02. Thoughts?

 

[jerseyjigroe]

Two good articles on this:

- HockeyBuzz.com - Bill Meltzer - Meltzer's Musings: Is System to Blame?

- On Peter Laviolette's System and the Call For Change - Broad Street Hockey

 

[jerseyjigroe]

I like the system and it works. I'm with you and think some tweaks and personnel changes should suffice. With that said, I think Lavy needs to be a little more flexible and open to adjusting on the fly...especially in the playoffs. It seems that he can be stubborn some times.

 

[JMlion71]

Two good articles on this:

- HockeyBuzz.com - Bill Meltzer - Meltzer's Musings: Is System to Blame?

- On Peter Laviolette's System and the Call For Change - Broad Street Hockey

That 2nd article was very frank in the amount of fault that lies with Bryzgalov. I also read an article it linked to, showing that team effects on penalty kills are negligible. The interesting questions were the ones about the defensive schemes:

What is Laviolette's system in the defensive zone, and how does that result in goals against? For someone who primarily watches on TV, it is difficult to see enough off-the-puck play to analyze the defensive system employed, let alone how it differs from other coaches.

Do the wingers play the point men more closely, opening up the middle of the ice? Does Laviolette play more of a one-on-one style of defending than most?

 

[awaz]

what needs tweaked in my eyes is the puck support in the defensive zone.. we can talk about needing another d-man all day, but it doesn't matter if bobby orr is back there, if he's got nobody to pass but his partner to while 2 forecheckers come barrelling down on them, they're not going to be able to move the puck up the ice.. attack first, yes, but if you want to attack you have to be able to get it going.. i would like to see the forwards come deeper in to the zone to help breakouts.. countless times against the devils especially, the forecheckers would come in before the dmen could get a pass off, and then the forwards would leave them stranded to turn the puck over.. and we always blamed the dmen..

i actually think the flyers are in pretty good shape defensively with grossmann, coburn, mesz, timonen, bourdon, and gustaffson.. they could use another guy to make bourdon or gustaffsson the 7, but they dont NEED a top 4 dman THIS season i dont think.. obviously one would help, and one will definitely be needed in short order, so you go after the one that is available this season (suter), but i dont think that is a primary need for THIS season.. draft a guy that will hopefully become that stud dman, and dont wreck what you have this coming season to prepare for a future without timonen

if you can get suter without crushing yourself, do it.. but if you have to give him a 6 mil / 10 yr contract with a NMC, count me out.. i'll go 7mil for 3 years with a NTC, but i dont want another massive contract.. aside from hossa (unless he cant come back from a conky), how many of those are actually working out?

dipietro
pronger
gomez
ovechkin
bryz
richards
carter
luongo

 

[lasgop8]

what needs tweaked in my eyes is the puck support in the defensive zone.. we can talk about needing another d-man all day, but it doesn't matter if bobby orr is back there, if he's got nobody to pass but his partner to while 2 forecheckers come barrelling down on them, they're not going to be able to move the puck up the ice.. attack first, yes, but if you want to attack you have to be able to get it going.. i would like to see the forwards come deeper in to the zone to help breakouts.. countless times against the devils especially, the forecheckers would come in before the dmen could get a pass off, and then the forwards would leave them stranded to turn the puck over.. and we always blamed the dmen..

i actually think the flyers are in pretty good shape defensively with grossmann, coburn, mesz, timonen, bourdon, and gustaffson.. they could use another guy to make bourdon or gustaffsson the 7, but they dont NEED a top 4 dman THIS season i dont think.. obviously one would help, and one will definitely be needed in short order, so you go after the one that is available this season (suter), but i dont think that is a primary need for THIS season.. draft a guy that will hopefully become that stud dman, and dont wreck what you have this coming season to prepare for a future without timonen

if you can get suter without crushing yourself, do it.. but if you have to give him a 6 mil / 10 yr contract with a NMC, count me out.. i'll go 7mil for 3 years with a NTC, but i dont want another massive contract.. aside from hossa (unless he cant come back from a conky), how many of those are actually working out?

dipietro
pronger
gomez
ovechkin
bryz
richards
carter
luongo

Richards
Carter
Ovechkin
Luongo

Just about 50% and Bryz is still a question mark.

 

[awaz]

Richards
Carter
Ovechkin
Luongo

Just about 50% and Bryz is still a question mark.

you think those are working out? richards and carter had to be traded (and even though the kings are winning, its not really cause of carter/richards.. brown is on fire and quick is a menace).. ovechkin hasn't been the same since signing the deal.. and luongo just got replaced by a 25 yr old after being the butt of all vancouver jokes for 2 years..

i'll give you bryz being a question mark.. but i think every single flyers fan would get out from that contract right now if they could

 

[lasgop8]

you think those are working out? richards and carter had to be traded (and even though the kings are winning, its not really cause of carter/richards.. brown is on fire and quick is a menace).. ovechkin hasn't been the same since signing the deal.. and luongo just got replaced by a 25 yr old after being the butt of all vancouver jokes for 2 years..

i'll give you bryz being a question mark.. but i think every single flyers fan would get out from that contract right now if they could

Richards is playing exactly the way he did for us when we gave him the contract gritty hard nose corner work scores PP and shorthanded
Carter got traded from the worst team in the league because they suck and he wanted out ( i still hate carter) but his contract isnt the issue with him
Ovechkin is asked to play in a defensive game instead of run and gun if we had him he would have 70 goals
Luongo is in the top 10 in goalies in the league so his contract weather it be 2 years or 20 he is still a strter on most teams they just happen to have avery good backup goalie.

 

[awaz]

Richards is playing exactly the way he did for us when we gave him the contract gritty hard nose corner work scores PP and shorthanded
Carter got traded from the worst team in the league because they suck and he wanted out ( i still hate carter) but his contract isnt the issue with him
Ovechkin is asked to play in a defensive game instead of run and gun if we had him he would have 70 goals
Luongo is in the top 10 in goalies in the league so his contract weather it be 2 years or 20 he is still a strter on most teams they just happen to have avery good backup goalie.

i'll give you richards..

carter's contract is definitely a problem.. go back through these threads and see how many times he got called out for not performing to his contract.. if we were all kings fans we'd still be laying in to him.. he's got 4 points in 10 playoff games.. and only 1 goal. he had 34 points in 65 games this season. he's way over paid for what he brings night in and night out.. and if you wanna pull the 'columbus sucks' card, he had .64 ppg in columbus, .5 so far in LA

i disagree on OV but there really isn't anyway to prove that haha. i think the league has figured him out to a degree because he, like your pal jvr, has 1 go to move and everyone shuts it down now.. he'll still get his 30-40 goals year in and year out, but is that worth 9 mil in cap space?

i suppose i'll let you have luongo too.. but i bet vancouver fans wouldnt..

 

[fanwagon]

Good thoughts gents. I agree with you awaz that the tweeks need to be minor systematicly. A little more support from the wingers on breakouts are definately needed. I think youre spot on. Breakouts were the biggest problem when this team was slumping. I remember thinking that during the regular season too.

One other thing that just killed us at times was Bryz. It just seemed like, when we were in a slump, he was never able to get the 'momentum' stop. They just seemed to go in on him at turning points in games. I dont want to rag on the guy too much because I actually think he will be much better next year after a year adjusting. He showed what kind of goalie he can be in March. I actually thought he was decent in the playoffs with a few games as exceptions (which cant happen in the playoffs). Him playing better (or not) will be a big determination over what 'tweeks' this team needs.

As far as those lengthy contracts go, I'm not a huge fan of them either. Get a Dman if you can do it without giving up the farm, or ability to effectively sign G in a few years

 

[awaz]

Good thoughts gents. I agree with you awaz that the tweeks need to be minor systematicly. A little more support from the wingers on breakouts are definately needed. I think youre spot on. Breakouts were the biggest problem when this team was slumping. I remember thinking that during the regular season too.

One other thing that just killed us at times was Bryz. It just seemed like, when we were in a slump, he was never able to get the 'momentum' stop. They just seemed to go in on him at turning points in games. I dont want to rag on the guy too much because I actually think he will be much better next year after a year adjusting. He showed what kind of goalie he can be in March. I actually thought he was decent in the playoffs with a few games as exceptions (which cant happen in the playoffs). Him playing better (or not) will be a big determination over what 'tweeks' this team needs.

As far as those lengthy contracts go, I'm not a huge fan of them either. Get a Dman if you can do it without giving up the farm, or ability to effectively sign G in a few years

my problem with bryz was he always gave up a goal at the worst time.. that's what killed us against the rags this year i thought.. i dont remember if it was bryz every game, but it seemed like every game against the rags this year we would battle battle battle and dominate territorial play and FINALLY get a goal, only to watch them win the faceoff right after, go down lay in a soft shot that found its way in to the net.. when you have to work so hard for a goal and then watch the other team pot one with ease because the goalie wasn't mentally ready, its really deflating.. that wasn't a problem done the stretch i didnt think, but in earlier parts of the season i saw that a lot

however, i think the flyers AWFUL luck in the beginning of the year really wore on bryz and wrecked his confidence for the season.. the bounces did not go the flyers way at all at the beginning of the season.. every shot ended up getting deflected and bouncing off 4 or 5 objects and ending up in the back of the net.. ya you make your own luck, and it came after a while, but i think that really set bryz back at the beginning of the season and he didnt really recover until march, and then he broke his foot. damnit.

i still dont like bryz's contract, but i'm perfectly ok w/ him as the goalie next year

 

[fanwagon]

Youre right. A lot of our GT woes can be attributed to bad luck (bounces in the beginning and broken foot at the end). Thats one of the reasons I like to see for a few seasons before jumping to conclusions. "Luck" will balance itself out statistically over a big enough sample size. (sorry im an engineer too...) If March Bryz comes around more often next year, whoa look out.

Im with you on the contract length on the surface but like I said about sample size, it'll take a few seasons to evaluate Bryz and whether he fits in the flyers system. By that time, the remainder of his contract will be much smaller and easier for another team to absorb if it turns out he doesnt fit here.

 

[awaz]

Youre right. A lot of our GT woes can be attributed to bad luck (bounces in the beginning and broken foot at the end). Thats one of the reasons I like to see for a few seasons before jumping to conclusions. "Luck" will balance itself out statistically over a big enough sample size. (sorry im an engineer too...) If March Bryz comes around more often next year, whoa look out.

Im with you on the contract length on the surface but like I said about sample size, it'll take a few seasons to evaluate Bryz and whether he fits in the flyers system. By that time, the remainder of his contract will be much smaller and easier for another team to absorb if it turns out he doesnt fit here.

woo!

engineering ftw!

 

[jerseyjigroe]

woo!

engineering ftw!

 

[dspice07]

get outta here jersey! engineers only on this thread!

 

[lasgop8]

It's funny while all you engineers have all this free time to post who is doing all the engineering?

 

[awaz]

It's funny while all you engineers have all this free time to post who is doing all the engineering?

you'd be surprised at the snail's pace these places work at.. no joke, i could get a 'gold star' for my work week if i worked hard for a full day.. at least that's how it works here.. if you can move around excel and word with any kind of pace you could be an all-star in this office haha

 

[4thstreet]

It's funny while all you engineers have all this free time to post who is doing all the engineering?

My thought also-must get passed down to "the little"engine"that could.

On to the team.Yes the Flyers can score in bunches,but their d is atrocious.
I would suggest Lavi copy the Montreal Canadians of the 70"s and early 80's system.

They too had a team that could fill the net but all of their forwards could backcheck-Gainey(repeated Selke winner)Shutt,Carbonneau,Risebrough,etc.

They also had great speed,which the Flyers are definitely not short on.Use it.

 

[raptorlife4]

System is fine
With Prongs and Mez we would have been just fine

We just need better players on the back end
If Pronger isnt back then make a push for Weber or Suter.

We need that number 1 guy to take the pressure of Timmo. He wore out being the number 1.
Weber/Suter
Timmo
Mez
Grossman
Gusty
Another free agent maybe a Hal Gill who can block shots

 

[raptorlife4]

System is fine
With Prongs and Mez we would have been just fine

We just need better players on the back end
If Pronger isnt back then make a push for Weber or Suter.

We need that number 1 guy to take the pressure of Timmo. He wore out being the number 1.
Weber/Suter
Timmo
Mez
Grossman
Gusty
Another free agent maybe a Hal Gill who can block shots

I also really like Wideman