C-Webb and Steve Kerr ripping into Mark Jackson's system

[NBKLee]

If flaws in team or player approaches to the game can't be identified, how can they be corrected? Again, I'm not sure why you wish to entirely dismiss this line of criticism from two NBA vets. Your attempt to diminish the value of their opinions based on not being the #1 crew at TNT is a bit silly. It's a valid criticism, no matter how many injuries the team has suffered this season.

My post follows up on a specific criticism of the offense. I did not offer a general critique of Jackson's tenure. The historical perspective that you attempt to provide will only be necessary if I start calling for Jackson's head, and as far as I'm concerned, he's A-okay for now.

The flaws in this team can be identified. FE being injured all year, JO being injured for a long stretch, losing Iguodla to injures Bogut being injured. JO played with one healthy wrist, Speights as a back 4/5, etc. Injuries plagued this team last year, and team are showing their ugly head this year.


I don't necessary disagree with Webber or Kerr, but I'll just say they don't know the "whole picture".


I don't particularly like the Iso's, but they are big part of this team as constructed. Dubs play an style of offense which most teams don't see, and game plan against.

1) Steph launches fast break 3 pointers at will
2) Klay/HB posts up vs smaller men
3) Bogut one of better passers, throws backdoor passes probably better than most big men in the game.
4) Dubs do run pick and rolls, mostly to D.Lee at the elbow.

*This is strongly lacking while Bogut is hurt.


To say the Dubs just try to out "height" folks is not telling the whole story. The Dubs are a better defensive team this year. In many cases, they held OPP FG % under 40% and held teams below their season averages in scoring.


I guess I don't really have a point here, and we can agree to disagree Dennis.


OT: You hear Bonds is back in camp in El Giante Land? He think he'll get his 3 locker / sofa setup like he did when he was the MVP?

 

[TobyTyler]

Well summed-up. But even when it's all clicking and everyone's healthy, they don't beat SA or Indiana or Miami or OKC in a 7 game series. Yet.

I think they'd stand a very good chance against Miami. They match up very well against that team and Miami prefers not to play defense as well.

 

[msgkings322]

I think they'd stand a very good chance against Miami. They match up very well against that team and Miami prefers not to play defense as well.

As well? Well you are right, Miami doesn't play defense nearly as well as the Warriors this year:

Hollinger's NBA Team Stats - ESPN Insider - National Basketball Association - ESPN

In fact only Indiana and Chicago play defense better than the Ws. Of course that's with Bogut in there.

 

[TobyTyler]

For all his faults, Jackson has turned the titanic around here. From Day 1, he demanded his players bring the energy on defense, and expected hard work daily.

How many times in the past 15-20 years, could you honestly say our defense has won us a majority of the games here? I'll wait patiently for that answer

After a complete overhaul of a roster, he brought us from the lottery team to the 2nd round of the playoffs in his short stint here. Has he won us a ring yet? No, but if we judge by that criteria, 29 other teams fail aswell.

I love Kerr and Webber's commentary, I love watching them on Open Court, but the fact is, they don't know our team on the local level. They are just national media guys, who don't see the team on a day-to-day basis like some of us do.

The team has dealt with injuries, its a cheap excuse, but yes the Dubs were injured from Iguodala, FE all year, D.Lee for a stretch, Bogut, Steph, Toney Douglas, and HB for a few games. Klay is our one iron man.


We still have a flawed roster, but the Coach still has the team playing hard. Get him some healthy pieces, and look out. You think SAS, OKC, POR, or Flop City want to see us in the first round?

Bullshit! there are zero consequences for not playing defense and turning the ball over. That is why they play so poorly on D and throw the ball away so much.

 

[Hambombs]

Bullshit! there are zero consequences for not playing defense and turning the ball over. That is why they play so poorly on D and throw the ball away so much.

They play so poorly on D????? Huh

 

[Hambombs]

As well? Well you are right, Miami doesn't play defense nearly as well as the Warriors this year:

Hollinger's NBA Team Stats - ESPN Insider - National Basketball Association - ESPN

In fact only Indiana and Chicago play defense better than the Ws. Of course that's with Bogut in there.

You can argue that if iguodala didn't go down we would be 2nd

 

[TobyTyler]

They play so poorly on D????? Huh

I was appalled at their lack of effort on D at Phoenix. Additonally, their recent efforts against Miami, Minnesota and OKC were sub par as well.

 

[msgkings322]

As well? Well you are right, Miami doesn't play defense nearly as well as the Warriors this year:

Hollinger's NBA Team Stats - ESPN Insider - National Basketball Association - ESPN

In fact only Indiana and Chicago play defense better than the Ws. Of course that's with Bogut in there.

Bump, Toby. You suck at this.

 

[tzill]

To borrow a cliche' at the end of the day, the Dubs are a jump shooting team that plays good defense, runs when they can, and runs iso's in the halfcourt.

When your team is built around Steph, Iguodala, D.Lee, Bogut and filled in with KLay, HB, and Green, Crawford, and now Blake, you aren't going to run the Princeton offense.

When the shots are falling, and we remember to play defense, we are a top 5 team. When we are injured and play down to the competition, we lose to the Bobcats/Hornets.

And, IMO, that's on Jackson. We are terrible at times on D. Far too often. Our 10 bad losses this year are almost all due to horrid D. Last night, Avi out and the W's play great D.

Coincidence?

 

[tzill]

As well? Well you are right, Miami doesn't play defense nearly as well as the Warriors this year:

Hollinger's NBA Team Stats - ESPN Insider - National Basketball Association - ESPN

In fact only Indiana and Chicago play defense better than the Ws. Of course that's with Bogut in there.

MSG sucked in by Conern Trolls concerns. Don't stare into the abyss, msg!! Don't do it.

 

[JustOneDennisBergkamp]

The flaws in this team can be identified. FE being injured all year, JO being injured for a long stretch, losing Iguodla to injures Bogut being injured. JO played with one healthy wrist, Speights as a back 4/5, etc. Injuries plagued this team last year, and team are showing their ugly head this year.


I don't necessary disagree with Webber or Kerr, but I'll just say they don't know the "whole picture".


I don't particularly like the Iso's, but they are big part of this team as constructed. Dubs play an style of offense which most teams don't see, and game plan against.

1) Steph launches fast break 3 pointers at will
2) Klay/HB posts up vs smaller men
3) Bogut one of better passers, throws backdoor passes probably better than most big men in the game.
4) Dubs do run pick and rolls, mostly to D.Lee at the elbow.

*This is strongly lacking while Bogut is hurt.


To say the Dubs just try to out "height" folks is not telling the whole story. The Dubs are a better defensive team this year. In many cases, they held OPP FG % under 40% and held teams below their season averages in scoring.


I guess I don't really have a point here, and we can agree to disagree Dennis.


OT: You hear Bonds is back in camp in El Giante Land? He think he'll get his 3 locker / sofa setup like he did when he was the MVP?

I'm not sure what this Toby fella is going on about, but amid his silly contention that the Warriors don't focus on or take pride in their defending, allow me to get back atcha.

Though you start your response with more about injuries, you do actually introduce the many ways that the team can approach half-court offense. Add to that, running both of your shooters off of screens on opposite sides of the floor and a few more wrinkles, and that's a decent variety of options - to too much iso.

As to those iso options, when Klay shoots a turnaround jumper from 18 feet and in, it's money, but HB ain't got that kind of game and often dribbles himself into trouble when going 1 v 1. And as I've said about Curry and others, there is far greater overall damage to be done by going to the rack when a big is in front of you compared to dribbling and hoisting. The Tony Parker approach leads to lay ups, fouls and wide open shots on kick-outs. The Steph approach brings down the house when he throws a high-arching 25 footer into the center of the ring, but most of the time, like much of the Warrior iso activity, it brings the offense to a grinding halt and gives the other team's defense a break.

Get out of here re: Bonds! Assuming that he can actually teach, he might have a thing or two to show the boys about hitting. It's too bad that the steroid era tarnished what was otherwise a fantastic career prior to being driven to using in 1999. He was a legit 500-500 man and a first ballot HOF'er no matter how big a prick he was.

For pure hitters with sweet swings and incredible eyes, it's Bonds and Williams out ahead of the pack.

 

[NBKLee]

And, IMO, that's on Jackson. We are terrible at times on D. Far too often. Our 10 bad losses this year are almost all due to horrid D. Last night, Avi out and the W's play great D.

Coincidence?

Dunno, per Rusty @ Chron

"...Dubs are now 26-4 when they hold opp under 100 points.."

Seems like they are doing a good job for the most part. Those 30 games, D.Lee + Bogut were in the lineup for the most part aswell.

Not saying Dubs are Elite defensively, but aren't they worst either or "horrid" either.

 

[msgkings322]

Dunno, per Rusty @ Chron

"...Dubs are now 26-4 when they hold opp under 100 points.."

Seems like they are doing a good job for the most part. Those 30 games, D.Lee + Bogut were in the lineup for the most part aswell.

Not saying Dubs are Elite defensively, but aren't they worst either or "horrid" either.

But the ARE elite defensively! Has anyone looked at the link?

 

[msgkings322]

And, IMO, that's on Jackson. We are terrible at times on D. Far too often. Our 10 bad losses this year are almost all due to horrid D. Last night, Avi out and the W's play great D.

Coincidence?

Check the link, tzill they are very very good defensively, 3rd best in the NBA. Yes they had a few bad games, every team does, but ball don't lie. Bogut, our best defender, was out too.

If anything Jackson deserves criticism for the offense not the D, as this thread (and Webber and Kerr) pointed out.

 

[msgkings322]

And by the way from the same link the Ws are 12th in OFFENSIVE efficiency. So 3rd in defensive efficiency, 12th in offensive: that's a good team and Jackson deserves a lot of credit. They are almost right there. Maybe at full strength with the better bench (Blake and Crawford) they will prove me wrong and win more than 1 playoff series.

 

[Hambombs]

I was appalled at their lack of effort on D at Phoenix. Additonally, their recent efforts against Miami, Minnesota and OKC were sub par as well.

The only one I don't agree with is miami.

 

[Hambombs]

Dunno, per Rusty @ Chron

"...Dubs are now 26-4 when they hold opp under 100 points.."

Seems like they are doing a good job for the most part. Those 30 games, D.Lee + Bogut were in the lineup for the most part aswell.

Not saying Dubs are Elite defensively, but aren't they worst either or "horrid" either.

It's not about how many points allowed. It's about what percentage the other team is shooting. Warriors are an elite defensive team. Reason I say don't look at points allowed is because the dubs play at a fast pace

 

[msgkings322]

It's not about how many points allowed. It's about what percentage the other team is shooting. Warriors are an elite defensive team. Reason I say don't look at points allowed is because the dubs play at a fast pace

No, there's an even better stat: defensive efficiency, which is how many points given up per 100 possessions, which obviously accounts for pace. The Ws are third in the league behind only Indy and Chicago. They are a very very good defensive team this year, obviously due to a healthy (until now) Bogut and adding Iguodala.

 

[tzill]

Dunno, per Rusty @ Chron

"...Dubs are now 26-4 when they hold opp under 100 points.."

Seems like they are doing a good job for the most part. Those 30 games, D.Lee + Bogut were in the lineup for the most part aswell.

Not saying Dubs are Elite defensively, but aren't they worst either or "horrid" either.

Oh, I agree, they're not routinely horrid. But, they have 7 bad losses (@LAL, @CHA, @BRK, DEN, MIN, WAS, CHA) and 6 winnable home losses (MEM, POR, HOU, SA, IND, MIA). Say they had won 5 of those bad losses and 3 of the winnable losses...they'd be 42-14 and in the mix for the one seed. If they had won just 5 of the bad losses alone they'd be 39-17 and 2.5 up on Flop City with a 3 seed. That's the frustrating thing about this season -- they have the talent to be a top 3 seed, but they fall asleep on defense and don't take care of the basketball. They've regressed since last year.

Let's look at those 13 losses:

Avi started in all 13

Bad losses: 106 ppg given up; 47% fg against; 16 TOs
Winnable losses: 106 ppg; 46%; 17
Totals for the 13 games: 106; 47%; 17 TO
Season averages: 99; 43; 15
League averages: 101; 45; 14

Conclusions -- The Ws defense is improved over recent years, it's top ten in most metrics for the season. However, in their seven bad losses (and that's arguably 8 bad losses with the home loss to the Spur reserves) it's been bad. The turnovers have been a problem all season, and is exacerbated in the bad losses. The defense isn't much better in the winnable losses either, and the TO problem is actually even worse in those six games. Avi has played in all these games.

Now Lee isn't solely responsible for these losses; often he's been one of the few players keeping them in the games with his offense. The point remains (and I said this when we signed him to the contract) he's a turnstile on defense. Bogut covers up some of his deficiencies, but in all likelihood for the W's to get to the next (i.e. contender) level he'll need to be traded for a PF that can play D.

 

[tzill]

But the ARE elite defensively! Has anyone looked at the link?

I think you'd need to define "elite." They are elite in fg% against, and very good in 3pt% against. However, and this is a big however, they are bad way too often. I laid out the numbers for the 7 bad losses and the 6 winnable home losses...that's too high a number of "just didn't play defense" games for the Ws to be considered elite.

Now, we can discuss the reasons (Iggy is probably going to have surgery this offseason and is less than 100%, Bogut has been hurt, Avi has never been good defensively, Klay has regressed, Steph has to expend too much energy playing too much minutes to be effective on D, HB has regressed, no real backup PG until Blake arrived, etc.) but the fact is, as of Feb 23, the Ws are not an elite defensive team.

And they turn the ball over waaaaay too much.

Frustrating season all the way around.