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Bennett sits for national anthem

chf

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It doesn't matter what his intentions are. It really doesn't. There will be those that won't get his words when he says something about family and military ties etc. To a fairly substantial group of fans out there he is shitting on THEIR flag. Period. Doesn't matter if anyone is right in this, it is perception.

And AGAIN, perceptions change. Clay/Ali refused to SERVE, and was a pariah. Then he ended up being a national treasure respected for his social stance and bravery.

Perceptions change.

So, no, not 'period.'
 

Anointed One

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Why doesn't he do this on MLK day? Oh wait... I think I know the answer to that... IF he wants to make a statement, do it on MLK day...
 

Anointed One

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And AGAIN, perceptions change. Clay/Ali refused to SERVE, and was a pariah. Then he ended up being a national treasure respected for his social stance and bravery.

Perceptions change.

So, no, not 'period.'

That makes no sense
 

chf

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That makes no sense

Why not? What's nonsensical about it? Ali actually broke the law (and according to the rhetoric of the day 'spit' on the flag), and he ended up respected.
 

WizardHawk

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And AGAIN, perceptions change. Clay/Ali refused to SERVE, and was a pariah. Then he ended up being a national treasure respected for his social stance and bravery.

Perceptions change.

So, no, not 'period.'
Sorry, but yes period. To me anyway. You can act all like you know the future and that's fine with me.

I think it's not the right place and it does more harm to their cause than good. I've seen plenty of lash back to support that view.

You are really hung up on Ali when what he was fighting for was just so entirely different. That was such a different era. Successful black people in america today is such a common thing. I mean didn't we just say goodbye to a black president of the freaking country that was elected not once, but twice? It's just not the same thing these days.

Perceptions aren't going to change much, but the message will get ignored and become something people talk about less and less. What then? More socks and clothes to rile up the media to keep things going?
 

chf

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Sorry, but yes period. To me anyway. You can act all like you know the future and that's fine with me.

I think it's not the right place and it does more harm to their cause than good. I've seen plenty of lash back to support that view.

You are really hung up on Ali when what he was fighting for was just so entirely different. That was such a different era. Successful black people in america today is such a common thing. I mean didn't we just say goodbye to a black president of the freaking country that was elected not once, but twice? It's just not the same thing these days.

Perceptions aren't going to change much, but the message will get ignored and become something people talk about less and less. What then? More socks and clothes to rile up the media to keep things going?

Yep it WAS a different era, people were much MORE racist. And he STILL became a hero. <shrug> And let's be clear, I'm not saying I KNOW what the future will hold, I'm saying nobody else does either.

Thus making your 'period' ridiculous.
 

chf

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And c'mon man, for living fucks sake, people are going to talk about race issues LESS with what just happened on the weekend?

Uh-huh.
 

WizardHawk

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So talking about their stupidity to you serves the same purpose as having actual substantive discussion about the topic they are trying to raise with it.

People were already talking about race issues. Did you not see what happened over the weekend? And all of this stuff they are trying to bring to light is on the news cycle every time a cop does something stupid. It's not like we don't already discuss it.
 

JMR

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If anyone wants to sit during the NA, then that is their choice.
Well no kidding. But that doesn't mean that the NFL must put up with it or that the player(s) are free from consequence. It's also my choice to not support the player's behavior.
 

JMR

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Then educate me
This just isn't a 1A issue at all. The 1A talks about LAWS being unable to limit speech....but there are limitations (and your initial statement was that the 1A allows people to say absolutely whatever they want, which is not true.) No laws involved here.

However, when you're representing your employer, your employer does have a say in how you conduct yourself. The NFL already curbs players' behaviors in other ways. I hope it does not, but this disrespecting the flag thing could get to a point where the NFL steps in and takes action. And they have the legal authority to do it (also with limitations, of course). Bennett isn't going to get jailed, but he simply isn't allowed to say whatever he wants while representing the NFL or Seattle Seahawks.
 

JMR

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And c'mon man, for living fucks sake, people are going to talk about race issues LESS with what just happened on the weekend?

Uh-huh.
This is a good point, and I often wonder why NFL players think they are starting some dialog about race. Race has been and continues to be in the news and talked about all the time. And I don't even think we were talking about race when Kaepernick knelt as much as we talked about the kneeling. It wasn't productive in the least, in my view. It just made people pissed off at Kaepernick, which in turn started some fights between those people (most of them white I would guess) and people who supported him (most of them non-white I would also guess, plus whites on the liberal left). So in the end, as I see it, these behaviors have been nothing but divisive. A complete ends/ways/means backfire. Just my opinion, of course.
 

chf

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This is a good point, and I often wonder why NFL players think they are starting some dialog about race. Race has been and continues to be in the news and talked about all the time. And I don't even think we were talking about race when Kaepernick knelt as much as we talked about the kneeling. It wasn't productive in the least, in my view. It just made people pissed off at Kaepernick, which in turn started some fights between those people (most of them white I would guess) and people who supported him (most of them non-white I would also guess, plus whites on the liberal left). So in the end, as I see it, these behaviors have been nothing but divisive. A complete ends/ways/means backfire. Just my opinion, of course.

Kaep -----------------------------------------------------------Charlottesville -------------------------------


On the 'divisive' scale.

If Kaep angers you, then Charlottesville should be making you apoplectic.

Just my opinion of course.

Seems we bend over backwards to recognize the right to speech for one spectrum, and wag our fingers at some peaceful individuals.
 

chf

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And I realize that that post could be seem to be pretty provocative. Not really my intention. I'm getting kinda' fed up with the larger tone of the larger discussion (not specifically your tone).
 

JMR

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Kaep -----------------------------------------------------------Charlottesville -------------------------------


On the 'divisive' scale.

If Kaep angers you, then Charlottesville should be making you apoplectic.

Just my opinion of course.

Seems we bend over backwards to recognize the right to speech for one spectrum, and wag our fingers at some peaceful individuals.
I'm not angry at Kaepernick. Was using "pissed off" as a bit of a moniker. I am not mad at him. I just disagree with his behavior and think he made us talk about his method more than his message, then further revealed what a dingaling he is with the cop pig socks at practice, not voting, and Castro t-shirt.

My overall point was not to say I am mad at this and more mad (or less mad) at something else, but to say that I think this flag stuff these guys are doing is backfiring. Ineffective to its intended purpose. It's dividing us more than it's uniting or creating a "dialog" as they say they're attempting to start. I've seen friends go at each other over it, not discussing the issues in the "message" but instead in conflict over the method of delivery. It's pretty much the fundamental goof in communication -- getting your message lost for how poorly you delivered it.

The funny (ironic/strange, not humorous) thing to me is I agree with EVERYTHING MB said in his message on why he sat for the anthem, but to me it doesn't make any sense to take it out on thing that to me symbolizes all those things in his message. In my opinion, it's like protesting 24 Hour Fitness because you're upset at the growing obesity problem. Total disconnect. But that's my opinion, of course, and I recognize both Kaep and MB have plenty of supporters....including many of my personal friends who are intelligent, well educated, and have my utmost respect (and continued friendship, despite us being at odds on this particular issue).
 

chf

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I'm not angry at Kaepernick. Was using "pissed off" as a bit of a moniker. I am not mad at him. I just disagree with his behavior and think he made us talk about his method more than his message, then further revealed what a dingaling he is with the cop pig socks at practice, not voting, and Castro t-shirt.

My overall point was not to say I am mad at this and more mad (or less mad) at something else, but to say that I think this flag stuff these guys are doing is backfiring. Ineffective to its intended purpose. It's dividing us more than it's uniting or creating a "dialog" as they say they're attempting to start. I've seen friends go at each other over it, not discussing the issues in the "message" but instead in conflict over the method of delivery. It's pretty much the fundamental goof in communication -- getting your message lost for how poorly you delivered it.

The funny (ironic/strange, not humorous) thing to me is I agree with EVERYTHING MB said in his message on why he sat for the anthem, but to me it doesn't make any sense to take it out on thing that to me symbolizes all those things in his message. In my opinion, it's like protesting 24 Hour Fitness because you're upset at the growing obesity problem. Total disconnect. But that's my opinion, of course, and I recognize both Kaep and MB have plenty of supporters....including many of my personal friends who are intelligent, well educated, and have my utmost respect (and continued friendship, despite us being at odds on this particular issue).

But I think that's exactly Bennet's (and some other's) point. America SHOULD symbolize freedom and fairness and equality. But it's not doing a very good job of it. The TREND in America right now is going in the wrong direction. Things aren't getting better, they're getting WORSE.

I've made this point repeatedly with interactions with others on this topic, but America has broad shoulders. It can handle some criticism. It's exactly BECAUSE people love it and respect it, that they're also critical of it.

If a family member is on the wrong track, does it speak to loving them to ignore their trajectory? Or to speak up (with LOVE) and voice your concerns?

Now sure, that's a bit simplistic, but I think the point stands.

Kaep has indeed made some silly messaging decisions. Boyer told him this, but still respected his freedom to speak out anyway.

That's where I am.

But the subtext to a LOT (again, not saying you specifically) posts, is 'just stfu,' instead of 'hey, speak out better.'
 

JMR

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But I think that's exactly Bennet's (and some other's) point. America SHOULD symbolize freedom and fairness and equality. But it's not doing a very good job of it. The TREND in America right now is going in the wrong direction. Things aren't getting better, they're getting WORSE.
That it's getting worse is an opinion or perception for sure. We are a lot better at knowing things quicker that we may have not even have found out about 20 years ago (but they still happened) by virtue of today's technology...smart phones, internet, social media, 24 hours news channels, etc. For example, if in 1996 somebody in Portland didnt want to bake a cake for someone else because of religious reasons, do you really think you would have found out about it on the other side of the country or really anywhere else outside of that local community? I doubt it. Now if that happens, it's viral on fb within 24 hours.

But that's why I have the 24 Hour Fitness analogy. People working out there may not be in pristine health, but they're giving it their best. They may even work out and then go have a twinkie or worse. Also could be a McDonald's right next door with people getting unhealthier by the bite. But it doesnt mean the gym doesnt symbolize the strive for better health and fitness. The fact that we are getting fatter as a country doesnt take away from what the fitness center stands for. Same way I feel about the flag. The execution may be the issue, not the principles themselves.
 

rjshull

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This just isn't a 1A issue at all. The 1A talks about LAWS being unable to limit speech....but there are limitations (and your initial statement was that the 1A allows people to say absolutely whatever they want, which is not true.) No laws involved here.

However, when you're representing your employer, your employer does have a say in how you conduct yourself. The NFL already curbs players' behaviors in other ways. I hope it does not, but this disrespecting the flag thing could get to a point where the NFL steps in and takes action. And they have the legal authority to do it (also with limitations, of course). Bennett isn't going to get jailed, but he simply isn't allowed to say whatever he wants while representing the NFL or Seattle Seahawks.

No there are zero legal limitations to free speech. I am free to say anything that I want at any time outside of yelling fire in a crowded theater, but that has nothing to do with this subject. Hate speech is 100% legal, standing on the flag, sitting during the Anthem is all 100% legal. And I extended this conversation to include the activities in Charlottesville over the weekend.

But yes, just because you are free to say or do something doesn't mean you should and you are never free from your employers punishment, in this case they might be subject to a personal Conduct violation but there has been zero evidence to date that Roger is going to do anything.
 

JMR

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No there are zero legal limitations to free speech. I am free to say anything that I want at any time outside of yelling fire in a crowded theater, but that has nothing to do with this subject.
You're simply incorrect. You have a very casual understanding of the 1A.
 

Podunkparte

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Why doesn't he do this on MLK day? Oh wait... I think I know the answer to that... IF he wants to make a statement, do it on MLK day...

Yeah, why don't more people understand that they should be told when and where they can make a statement?!
 
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