1. Have something to say? Register Now! and be posting in minutes!

Alan Trammell and Jack Morris elected into HOF

Discussion in 'MLB Baseball Forum' started by Chewbaccer, Dec 10, 2017.

  1. navamind

    navamind Well-Known Member

    14,574
    1,823
    173
    Joined:
    May 15, 2012
    Location:
    NJ
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 1,000


    You say this when Ozzie had 76.5 career WAR and is widely considered to be the greatest defensive shortstop of all-time, if not the greatest defensive player period.

    the biggest thing that annoys me about any Omar vs. Ozzie debate is that people assume their offensive contributions are equal... they really aren't. Going by rBat, Ozzie was worth -117 runs while Omar was worth -244. Ozzie had seven seasons where his bat was worth positive runs while Omar had only two seasons north of 0. Omar had thirteen seasons where his bat was worth -10 runs or less while Ozzie had eight. Neither were good, but I'd say Ozzie was considerably better and Omar had more seasons where he hurt his team offensively. Ozzie at least had two seasons where he was in the top 10 in his league in OBP. Omar had 0.

    Then there's the matter of baserunning. Ozzie's baserunning was worth +79 runs. Omar was worth -1. They both stole a lot of bases, but Ozzie stole 176 more bases while getting caught 19 fewer times. Ozzie was successful on 80% of his stolen base attempts while Omar was successful 71% of the time. That's a pretty wide gap. Ozzie was also more successful at taking extra bases (53% vs. 42%).

    Once you take those things into account, I really don't think those two are comparable. I think Ozzie was a far superior player. There's a lot more to look at than WAR, but I think WAR is pretty accurate in the large discrepancy between the two even if we assume their defense was equal.
     



  2. msgkings322

    msgkings322 Throbbing Member

    25,210
    2,342
    173
    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2010
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 2,200


    I really wish Vizquel would make the Hall but you make a very good case. He's another close but no cigar player.
     
  3. VikingFan2k2

    VikingFan2k2 Well-Known Member

    2,507
    477
    83
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2014
    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 1,000


    I feel like I have to stand up for Jack Morris in a room full of Tigers fans. It is pretty strange.

    Jack got stuck between the old school guys who hate letting anyone in, and the new school guys who love their numbers above all else.

    He won 3 titles (technically 4). Yes, he struggled late and his ERA is inflated because he held on too long (hell, I went to a game where he started for the St. Paul Saints in 96'), but the guy was an absolute horse for over a decade.

    Ask yourselves this Tigers fans, how would the 80s have been without him on the mound?
     
  4. soxfan1468927

    soxfan1468927 Well-Known Member

    6,894
    949
    113
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2013
    Location:
    603
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 8,185


    Even if he retired at 37, he would have a 3.73 ERA and 109 ERA+ and if Jack Morris isn't on the Tigers in 1984 I think they still win the World Series. They won the division by 15 games, swept the ALCS, and won the World Series in 5.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. StanMarsh51

    StanMarsh51 Well-Known Member

    7,385
    660
    113
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 1,000



    Your ERA argument doesn't help Morris when you look deeper...

    Only 5x in Morris' career did he crack the AL's top 10 in ERA, and never finished better than 5th....let's not act like he was a good/great ERA pitcher but the end of his career skewed it...

    Looking at his ERA+ (which compares his ERA to league average), just 1x was his ERA+ at 130 or better (30% better than average) and 6x he was at 120 or better. Just to put that into perspective:

    -David Cone had 6 seasons with an ERA+ of 130 or better
    -Bret Saberhagen had 5 seasons of 130 or better
    -Kevin Brown had 5 seasons of 130 or better
    -Kevin Appier had 5 seasons of 130 or better
    -Dave Steib had 5 seasons of 130 or better
    -Tim Hudson had 4 seasons of 130 or better
    -David Wells had 2 seasons of 130 or better
    -Kenny Rogers had 3 seasons of 130 or better
    -Bartolo Colon had 2 seasons of 130 or better

    So none of these guys will ever sniff the HOF, but all were capable of putting up more seasons where their ERA was at least 30% than league average (guys like Cone, Saberhagen, Brown, Appier, Steib did it 5+ times each but Morris could only do this 1x).
     
  6. DragonfromTO

    DragonfromTO Well-Known Member

    9,202
    1,289
    173
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2013
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 1,000


    I know, right? I bet the balloting here was just George Brett shoving a slide rule up Robin Yount's ass while Dave Winfield and Don Sutton calculated the depth. Those guys are all such misguided nerds :wink:
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. broncosmitty

    broncosmitty Evolutionary Member

    61,910
    9,202
    533
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Location:
    Almost Paradise
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 9,875


    He doesn't need help.


    There is no arguement.


    He's in the HOF.
     
  8. broncosmitty

    broncosmitty Evolutionary Member

    61,910
    9,202
    533
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Location:
    Almost Paradise
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 9,875


    Why do you guys do this to yourselves?



    Start your own Hall...
     
  9. DragonfromTO

    DragonfromTO Well-Known Member

    9,202
    1,289
    173
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2013
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 1,000


    The two games the Blue Jays lost in the '92 World Series were lost by Morris. I'm pretty sure that he took a loss in the ALCS that year too, although I don't know that for sure and don't want to bother looking it up.

    He was so money that they didn't even give him the chance to do it again the next year, they just told him to stay home and gave him a ring.
     
  10. soxfan1468927

    soxfan1468927 Well-Known Member

    6,894
    949
    113
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2013
    Location:
    603
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 8,185


    Why do we have conversations about the HOF? The same reason we all voluntarily come here to talk sports. Because we want to.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. navamind

    navamind Well-Known Member

    14,574
    1,823
    173
    Joined:
    May 15, 2012
    Location:
    NJ
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 1,000


    "3x WS champ" implies that he played a role in 1993, the year where he had a 6+ ERA and didn't throw a single postseason pitch.
     
  12. soxfan1468927

    soxfan1468927 Well-Known Member

    6,894
    949
    113
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2013
    Location:
    603
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 8,185


    1984, 1991, and 1992.

    So even without 1993 he is a 3-time champ
     
  13. navamind

    navamind Well-Known Member

    14,574
    1,823
    173
    Joined:
    May 15, 2012
    Location:
    NJ
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 1,000


    fair enough, forgot one
     
  14. navamind

    navamind Well-Known Member

    14,574
    1,823
    173
    Joined:
    May 15, 2012
    Location:
    NJ
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 1,000


    Yeah, how dare we discuss a Hall of Fame selection on a sports message board.
     
  15. broncosmitty

    broncosmitty Evolutionary Member

    61,910
    9,202
    533
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Location:
    Almost Paradise
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 9,875


    Not the discussion.



    This is after the fact. He's in. You were wrong.
     
  16. broncosmitty

    broncosmitty Evolutionary Member

    61,910
    9,202
    533
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Location:
    Almost Paradise
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 9,875


    The HOF is not the Hall of Stats. Never was.
     
  17. MilkSpiller22

    MilkSpiller22 Gorilla

    23,779
    2,761
    293
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 20,000



    Yea. But they let a tiger in. That's the problem.
     
  18. navamind

    navamind Well-Known Member

    14,574
    1,823
    173
    Joined:
    May 15, 2012
    Location:
    NJ
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 1,000


    just because someone's put in the HOF doesn't mean they were deserving. I don't think Jim Rice should be anywhere near Cooperstown. and this discussion's been going on for decades... why stop just because he's in the HOF?
     
  19. msgkings322

    msgkings322 Throbbing Member

    25,210
    2,342
    173
    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2010
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 2,200


    Can't he visit? Or is there a restraining order situation?
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  20. Voltaire26

    Voltaire26 Detroit Born and Raised

    10,442
    3,495
    293
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2010
    Location:
    Somewhere North of Canada
    Hoopla Bookie:
    $ 1,000


    Rice, Lynn and Evans were a pretty impressive outfield ... Rice is a good Hall of Fame choice