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________ trumps Head-to-Head

Locke888

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I'll go with head to head as the deciding factor. If Baylor had 2 losses then yes TCU should be ahead of them but we are comparing two teams with the same amount of losses. Head to head trumps IMO. But I do remember a year where Notre Dame beat FSU and both teams finished with 1 loss apiece and they gave the NC to FSU. I still disagree with that result. Just checking in with my opinion.
 

longhorn718

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I'll try this one last time, and hopefully you'll get it. As of yet, you haven't addressed either of my points which show the clear logical fallacy in your argument.

I'll go to my old example. It's like we are both high school teachers, and have classes of 30 kids. We divide our classes into subsets of 10 and 20. My subset of 10 is taller on average and my subset of 20 is taller on average. This is proof that my class is taller on average.

Let's take one kid from each class and measure them against each other. My kid is 6'2" while your kid is 6'0". Just because your class is taller on average doesn't make your 6' kid taller than my 6'2". That's head to head. It also doesn't mean I'm saying my class is suddenly taller on average. That's not the discussion despite the straw man argument you keep shoving in our faces. I'm merely saying my one kid is taller than your one kid. You want the discussion to be about whose class is taller when really it's about who the tallest kids are.

All of the talk about averages and eye tests and hypotheticals are secondary to the indisputable fact that Baylor beat TCU.

"If that game was played at TCU..." but it wasn't.
"If they played 10 games then..." but they don't have to. They played the one game all teams have against each other (barring rematches).
"You can't tell me Baylor is better than TCU." The scoreboard can. You keep screaming about math. Well last time I checked, 61 > 58.
"If the refs hadn't miss those two PI calls..." Well maybe TCU shouldn't have allowed Baylor to get within spitting distance of winning. Bad/missed calls happen. It's up to the teams to do enough to make sure the refs are out of the game.
"If you look at the overall body of work..." In this case, they're close enough to be as good as equal. Hmm, I wonder what sort of tie-breaker we can use to make this determination.

Oh, I know...HEAD TO HEAD.
 

Used 2 B Hu

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Let's take one kid from each class and measure them against each other. My kid is 6'2" while your kid is 6'0". Just because your class is taller on average doesn't make your 6' kid taller than my 6'2". That's head to head. It also doesn't mean I'm saying my class is suddenly taller on average. That's not the discussion despite the straw man argument you keep shoving in our faces. I'm merely saying my one kid is taller than your one kid. You want the discussion to be about whose class is taller when really it's about who the tallest kids are.

All of the talk about averages and eye tests and hypotheticals are secondary to the indisputable fact that Baylor beat TCU.

"If that game was played at TCU..." but it wasn't.
"If they played 10 games then..." but they don't have to. They played the one game all teams have against each other (barring rematches).
"You can't tell me Baylor is better than TCU." The scoreboard can. You keep screaming about math. Well last time I checked, 61 > 58.
"If the refs hadn't miss those two PI calls..." Well maybe TCU shouldn't have allowed Baylor to get within spitting distance of winning. Bad/missed calls happen. It's up to the teams to do enough to make sure the refs are out of the game.
"If you look at the overall body of work..." In this case, they're close enough to be as good as equal. Hmm, I wonder what sort of tie-breaker we can use to make this determination.

Oh, I know...HEAD TO HEAD.

That post deserves a BOO-YAH
 

Shanemansj13

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Fuck them both. tOSU should get in with a win for the simple fact they didn't play a head-to-head. There that settles it. :suds:
 

Smart

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Let's take one kid from each class and measure them against each other. My kid is 6'2" while your kid is 6'0". Just because your class is taller on average doesn't make your 6' kid taller than my 6'2". That's head to head. It also doesn't mean I'm saying my class is suddenly taller on average. That's not the discussion despite the straw man argument you keep shoving in our faces. I'm merely saying my one kid is taller than your one kid. You want the discussion to be about whose class is taller when really it's about who the tallest kids are.

All of the talk about averages and eye tests and hypotheticals are secondary to the indisputable fact that Baylor beat TCU.

"If that game was played at TCU..." but it wasn't.
"If they played 10 games then..." but they don't have to. They played the one game all teams have against each other (barring rematches).
"You can't tell me Baylor is better than TCU." The scoreboard can. You keep screaming about math. Well last time I checked, 61 > 58.
"If the refs hadn't miss those two PI calls..." Well maybe TCU shouldn't have allowed Baylor to get within spitting distance of winning. Bad/missed calls happen. It's up to the teams to do enough to make sure the refs are out of the game.
"If you look at the overall body of work..." In this case, they're close enough to be as good as equal. Hmm, I wonder what sort of tie-breaker we can use to make this determination.

Oh, I know...HEAD TO HEAD.

Your whole post is premised off the idea that head-to-head is everything to arrive at the conclusion that head-to-head is everything. It is completely circular.

The question is "Who is deserving of going to the college football playoff in 2014?" Why is one game a better sample size than 12? That by itself violates the most fundamental rules of statistics.

No, their body of work is not identical. TCU's body of work is better. There is no tiebreaker to be had because they aren't tied. We've made that clear. If my average class size is 6'1 and yours is 6'0.5, you can't say "well, they are close to the same height and I won the first comparison...and since the other kids were measured against other classes, my class is taller." They are still shorter by a half an inch.

Your first paragraph is so wrong that I hope you are mistaken. Because what you are basically saying, "Just because TCU is better on the year doesn't mean that Baylor didn't win on that day. Since Baylor's best games are better, they are better than TCU."

If that's really what you meant, it is terrifying. And even if you believe it, it doesn't address the post I was responding to, which explicitly said it was a fact that Baylor was better than TCU THIS YEAR." So we were talking about the class average.

I do love the only your best games count, theory though. Wisconsin would likely have won a title in 2011 (where all but two of our wins was by 24+ points) and we'd arguably be heading for a playoff berth.
 

Smart

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It's an indisputable fact that Baylor lost to West Virginia. Therefore, West Virginia is better.

It's an indisputable fact that TCU beat West Virginia. Therefore, TCU is better.

Doesn't this, right then and there, destroy the head to head is everything theory? If anything, those two games are more controlled and are a better sample, as it is two teams playing the same opponent on the same field.

If we are going to say that one sample is better than twelve (which, again, is so indisputably stupid that I don't know where to begin), why would we use the sample played on one team's homefield?

Your logic is the type of logic which explains why America is lacking in science and math proficiency. How could someone who is seemingly intelligent make the argument that "a sample size of one beats a sample size of 12, even though the one happened at a biased location." It's the type of argument that should have caused you to fail the 6th grade.
 

icefreeze57

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What about the fact that TCU has a better L than Baylor does. A very close matchup at Baylor in which Baylor came back to beat TCU which was winning most of the game. Baylor losing to a weak WVU team is way weaker.
 

ElTexan

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It's an indisputable fact that Baylor lost to West Virginia. Therefore, West Virginia is better.

It's an indisputable fact that TCU beat West Virginia. Therefore, TCU is better.

Doesn't this, right then and there, destroy the head to head is everything theory? If anything, those two games are more controlled and are a better sample, as it is two teams playing the same opponent on the same field.

If we are going to say that one sample is better than twelve (which, again, is so indisputably stupid that I don't know where to begin), why would we use the sample played on one team's homefield?

Your logic is the type of logic which explains why America is lacking in science and math proficiency. How could someone who is seemingly intelligent make the argument that "a sample size of one beats a sample size of 12, even though the one happened at a biased location." It's the type of argument that should have caused you to fail the 6th grade.

I like this man's logic based anger. Throw in a few "dunces," and he shall be my best friend.
 

longhorn718

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I never said head to head was everything, and you saying that doesn't make it so. That's the first thing you need to learn. Secondly, how is my first paragraph mistaken? Does it not point out that you keep arguing one thing (comparison of which class is taller by average) when really the crux of the matter is another (tallest kids)? It does. The fact that you cannot grasp that is what is actually "terrifying." (BTW drama queen much?)

Head to head isn't everything, but it most certainly should be one of the most important things. Is it THE MOST important thing? No. I'd argue overall record is more important hence why West Virginia isn't part of this discussion. They lost too many games. Now, if they also only had one loss, then they'd have to be part of the conversation, but that's not what we have.

"Why is one game better than a sample size of twelve?" Because when we're talking about two teams that actually have a game between them, we don't need to discuss the entire schedule. They decided it on the field. As for games being played in biased locations, do you even college football? Almost all games are played this way, and it has always been that way. We don't excuse losses for being away just like we don't ignore home wins. We don't decide that just because the better team lost the game that we'll still give them the W. That's stupid.

As for your assertion of "my" theory that only the best games count, that's obviously false. TCU lost that game, and I am definitely saying it should count against them when comparing the two teams. Once again, head to head matters because what happened on the field matters. Should matter more than what ifs. Should matter more than eye test. That's the point of the games.

If you're really going to try and delve into discussing my scientific and mathematical literacy, I would suggest that you stop yourself at the gate, turn around, and leave. You're not going to win that fight. You know nothing about me. If you truly want to talk about the statistics in comparing two teams, you're already starting on shaky ground. Your analogy of heights of kids between two classes doesn't work as well as you think it does for this conversation. You want to compare a situation that has one concrete, measurable difference with one that has a ton of different measurements with multiple variables and different subjective factors. You already mentioned the bias of location, which all teams have to contend with for approximately half of their games btw so whatever, but you fail to mention overall wellness of the team, weather variations between games, game time differences, how the previous week's practices rated against other weeks, etc. It all counts if we're going to also pull in "home or away."
 

Smart

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I never said head to head was everything, and you saying that doesn't make it so. That's the first thing you need to learn. Secondly, how is my first paragraph mistaken? Does it not point out that you keep arguing one thing (comparison of which class is taller by average) when really the crux of the matter is another (tallest kids)?

You either don't understand the analogy or are seriously mistaken on how to rank teams. Each kid represents a game. The average height represents the performance of a team through 12 games (if you want to consider it total height, the result is the same). When you say the tallest kid is what matters, you are saying that the best games of a team are the only thing that matters.

So if a team went 5-7 but kicked ass in their five wins, if you really think tallest kid is what matters, that team would be going to the playoffs if you think "tallest kid" is everything.

You understand what I am saying now?
 

dirtboy068

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Does anyone actually believe Baylor is a better team than TCU?


nope.

my beef is TCU jumping Florida St. so is the committee saying they will drop a undefeated team out of the top four?
 
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