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2023 HOF Ballot

msgkings322

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...except he wasn't.

Smith: .262/.337/.328, 87 OPS+
Vizquel: .272/.336/.352, 82 OPS+

Ozzie also stole 176 more bases while getting caught 19 fewer times.


WAR isn't even remotely close. 76.9 for Ozzie to 45.6 for Vizquel, and that's with Omar having 1235 more plate appearances.
My memory deceived me, thanks for the numbers
 

msgkings322

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Yup. Agree. Schilling is a perfect example of just someone easy to hate. Not just because of his politics. Or it is but he was really outspoken about it.

But he is a clear HOFer imo. And arguably the best post season pitcher of all time.
Madison Bumgarner on line 2 sir
Rolen, congrats to him. Not the most deserving but on the right side of the fence that I won’t argue. But I think what helped him the most is the position. Third base is surprisingly very weak.
Catchers too, barely any in the Hall, one reason Posey is a lock IMO
 

broncosmitty

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Madison Bumgarner on line 2 sir

Catchers too, barely any in the Hall, one reason Posey is a lock IMO
Catchers are hampered by their position destroying longevity. Only a handful of guys who aren’t in who could be.

And are all of your opinions based on homerism?
 

navamind

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Yup. Agree. Schilling is a perfect example of just someone easy to hate. Not just because of his politics. Or it is but he was really outspoken about it.

But he is a clear HOFer imo. And arguably the best post season pitcher of all time.

Rolen, congrats to him. Not the most deserving but on the right side of the fence that I won’t argue. But I think what helped him the most is the position. Third base is surprisingly very weak.

I don't think 3rd base is weak, although I'd say it's underrepresented in the HOF (and there are a lot of 3B that feel like they border on HOF/HOVG). I fully expect Beltre to get in on his first try and I'd say there's a few that should probably be in the HOF (Nettles, Boyer, Bell, Bando). Arenado and Machado feel like they're pretty close. Jose Ramirez probably needs a few more years of AS/MVP level play, but he's starting to put together a case.
 

msgkings322

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Catchers are hampered by their position destroying longevity. Only a handful of guys who aren’t in who could be.

And are all of your opinions based on homerism?
Bumgarner yes, Posey no
 

Cedrique

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Not seeing it.

Larkin: .295/.371/.444, 116 OPS+, 198 HR, 2340 hits, 1329 runs, 960 RBIs, 379 stolen bases (caught 77 times), 70.5 WAR in 9057 PA
Rollins: .264/.324/.418, 95 OPS+, 231 HR, 2455 hits, 1421 runs, 936 RBIs, 470 stolen bases (caught 105 times), 47.6 WAR in 10240 PA

Larkin's easily a better hitter. Rollins was a good hitting shortstop in his prime, but a 95 OPS+ is still rather pedestrian for a SS and Larkin's 116 OPS+ ranks among the best hitting shortstops of all-time. Rollins had more extra base hits and a slightly higher ISO (.154 to .149), but Larkin was far better at hitting for average and getting on base (Rollins' career high .349 OBP in 2008 would have been the 6th worst of Larkin's career). Both were outstanding baserunners. Rollins does come out ahead in Rfield (+43 to +18).
Yeah Rollins had a good little run but he didn't age well, offensively anyway. Some guys that rely a lot on speed just lose a step when they get around 30-31.
 

navamind

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Yeah Rollins had a good little run but he didn't age well, offensively anyway. Some guys that rely a lot on speed just lose a step when they get around 30-31.

He had a good peak (04-08), but other than that he was pretty average/above average player. And while his peak was good, it wasn't that long and there are plenty of 5 year runs better than that.

Fun player though. Doubles, triples, home runs, and stolen bases. Would love to see someone put up another 20-20-20-20 season! That him and Grandy did in the same year was just awesome.
 

navamind

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Bummy had the best single post season. And that has bought him the most over-rated player of all time award!!!

wouldn't go that far, though I would say he's the new Jack Morris. Bumgarner's postseason performance is far better though!
 

MilkSpiller22

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I don't think 3rd base is weak, although I'd say it's underrepresented in the HOF (and there are a lot of 3B that feel like they border on HOF/HOVG). I fully expect Beltre to get in on his first try and I'd say there's a few that should probably be in the HOF (Nettles, Boyer, Bell, Bando). Arenado and Machado feel like they're pretty close. Jose Ramirez probably needs a few more years of AS/MVP level play, but he's starting to put together a case.


Beltre is top 10 third baseman of all time. He is clearly making it first ballot.

With that said he is one whose career longevity makes him so much better than he was.
 

Cedrique

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I don't think 3rd base is weak, although I'd say it's underrepresented in the HOF (and there are a lot of 3B that feel like they border on HOF/HOVG). I fully expect Beltre to get in on his first try and I'd say there's a few that should probably be in the HOF (Nettles, Boyer, Bell, Bando). Arenado and Machado feel like they're pretty close. Jose Ramirez probably needs a few more years of AS/MVP level play, but he's starting to put together a case.
Yeah I don't know how close Nettles got but in my opinion he's probably deserving. His offensive numbers aren't spectacular but they are good for the era he played in for a thirdbaseman. 390 homeruns has to be pretty high on the 3b list. He also could have had a few more gold gloves and all star appearances except for his career overlapping with Brooks Robinson. I believe Robinson was the best ever but there were probably some years near the end of his career where Nettles could have won the Gold Glove or made the All Star team on merit but voters were so used to giving it to Brooks it was tough for anyone to overtake him in voting.
 

navamind

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Beltre is top 10 third baseman of all time. He is clearly making it first ballot.

With that said he is one whose career longevity makes him so much better than he was.

I don't think anyone really considered him a HOFer until his Texas years. He did go from playing in pitcher friendly parks (Dodger Stadium, Safeco) to hitter friendly parks (Fenway, Arlington).

3,166 hits, 477 home runs and he's widely considered as one of the greatest defensive players of all-time? I'd be shocked if he gets under 90%.
 

msgkings322

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Bummy had the best single post season. And that has bought him the most over-rated player of all time award!!!
Uh, Jeter says hold my beer for that

But Bum's postseason numbers are great every time he was there not just otherworldly like 2014. He's more than that season.

I don't think he's a Hall of Famer though nor will he be.

Posey should be first ballot but he may not be
 

msgkings322

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...except he wasn't.

Smith: .262/.337/.328, 87 OPS+
Vizquel: .272/.336/.352, 82 OPS+

Keep in mind that while their careers overlapped, they played in pretty different eras for shortstops. SS was seen as a more defensive position during Ozzie's career than it was Omar's. Ozzie had more seasons with an OPS+ of 100 or higher and he did finish in the top 10 in OBP twice (Omar never finished in the top 10 in his league). Ozzie also stole 176 more bases while getting caught 19 fewer times.


WAR isn't even remotely close. 76.9 for Ozzie to 45.6 for Vizquel, and that's with Omar having 1235 more plate appearances.
My dad points out Vizquel was 123 hits shy of 3000, so that plus the rest he's certainly no WORSE than Ozzie. He should be in.
 

fightinfunbags

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Not seeing it.

Larkin: .295/.371/.444, 116 OPS+, 198 HR, 2340 hits, 1329 runs, 960 RBIs, 379 stolen bases (caught 77 times), 70.5 WAR in 9057 PA
Rollins: .264/.324/.418, 95 OPS+, 231 HR, 2455 hits, 1421 runs, 936 RBIs, 470 stolen bases (caught 105 times), 47.6 WAR in 10240 PA

Larkin's easily a better hitter. Rollins was a good hitting shortstop in his prime, but a 95 OPS+ is still rather pedestrian for a SS and Larkin's 116 OPS+ ranks among the best hitting shortstops of all-time. Rollins had more extra base hits and a slightly higher ISO (.154 to .149), but Larkin was far better at hitting for average and getting on base (Rollins' career high .349 OBP in 2008 would have been the 6th worst of Larkin's career). Both were outstanding baserunners. Rollins does come out ahead in Rfield (+43 to +18).
I agree. I am piggy backing off of an opinion I stole from Jason Stark. He’s the guy that pulls out Larkin’s name for a comparison to Rollins. I think I may have stated his opinion wrong. I stated better but I’m thinking now that Stark was saying based on a comparison to a guy already in at his position that Rollins stacks up pretty well.

Another argument made by Stark is that Rollins is the only guy from that core group of Phillies from 07-11 who has a legit chance to get in. He said he doesn’t see that group getting overlooked with no representation in the Hall.

I agree with you that Larkin gets the edge. After looking more closely, they are comparable in gold gloves with Rollins 4 and Larkin’s 3. However, Larkin’s 9 Silver Sluggers at his position vs Rollins 1 shows Larkin to be an elite producer at the plate relative to Rollins.
 

MilkSpiller22

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Uh, Jeter says hold my beer for that

But Bum's postseason numbers are great every time he was there not just otherworldly like 2014. He's more than that season.

I don't think he's a Hall of Famer though nor will he be.

Posey should be first ballot but he may not be


the old jeter is over-rated claim.... actually did the opposite.. the hate for jeter made him really under-rated... which is weird to say...

never really understood the hate for him...
 

Mebert

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It is clear after the vote that Beltran will get in eventually. I think the writers should probably post the acceptable forms a cheating so players know which ones won't keep them out of the hall
 

msgkings322

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the old jeter is over-rated claim.... actually did the opposite.. the hate for jeter made him really under-rated... which is weird to say...

never really understood the hate for him...
I don't hate him. He was great for the game and a sure fire HOFer. But if Bum was overrated so was Jeter.
 
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