Series Thread: 1) Golden State Warriors vs. 8) Los Angeles Clippers

[Wamu]

If this exercise has proven anything,

It is that you can't compare a guard's metrics to a big man's.

By the way, 109 is putrid for a big who rebounds as well as Love does.

If there's one thing I've learned recently it's that Kevin Love could be the answer to any type of player comparison.

 

[CitySushi]

If it is Kevin Love,

Defensive rating is strongly skewed favoring big men who don't guard perimeter players because of rebounding.

Cousins, for example is a career 103, 102 this season and yet he is the guy opposing teams attack almost every possession on ball screens.

And before you start, of you are guarding the other teams most dangerous perimeter threat on a nightly basis, defensive rebounding is not your priority. Staying connected to the scorer while teammates pursue the rebound is.

I don't think it's Kevin Love, but to be honest, it doesn't really matter if the player he posts is better or worse defensively because either way it supports my argument. My argument is just to simply show that defensive metrics are not always accurate in determining the players defensive abilities. That there are more determining factors to show that a player is a great defender if the numbers don't reflect it.

If he posts another great defender with worse numbers, its strengthens that the metrics are fallable.

If he posts a bad defender, it even furthers the argument the numbers are not a great metric because it's valuing that guy above a guy like Joe Dumars who is one of the greatest defensive SG's in the NBA's history.

I mean, the entire purpose is to show that the numbers can be flawed and either way he posts, it's going to show that. LOL.

 

[dtgold88]

Nope, wrong again. You're too smart to not understand this conversation.

Because I am smart I understand and it's just what I said......but at least you came around and realized we were on the same page so props to you.

 

[dtgold88]

Yes metrically it would be better than Joe Dumars. No clue, feel free to let me know.

Kyrie Irving, who has never even been thought of for an All defensive team.

 

[dtgold88]

Kevin Love > Joe Dumars

It's Kyrie Irving.

 

[dtgold88]

If it is Kevin Love,

Defensive rating is strongly skewed favoring big men who don't guard perimeter players because of rebounding.

Cousins, for example is a career 103, 102 this season and yet he is the guy opposing teams attack almost every possession on ball screens.

And before you start, of you are guarding the other teams most dangerous perimeter threat on a nightly basis, defensive rebounding is not your priority. Staying connected to the scorer while teammates pursue the rebound is.

Fabulous....but it's Kyrie Irving.

 

[dtgold88]

If this exercise has proven anything,

It is that you can't compare a guard's metrics to a big man's.

By the way, 109 is putrid for a big who rebounds as well as Love does.

BTW, it's not Love.

 

[dtgold88]

You don't understand player responsibility on the play in question and you have no interest in learning about what you don't know.

We can't have a real conversation about this play if you aren't willing to admit what you don't know here.

I understand just fine. You like Klay as a defender. You don't like cousins. You don't realize it's possible Cousins did his usual (nothing) but Klay also got beat like a drum.

It is comical you actually believe Klay wanted to follow Lou to his left only to get twisted like a pretzel and have to then try and catch up to his right.

 

[dtgold88]

If there's one thing I've learned recently it's that Kevin Love could be the answer to any type of player comparison.

If there's another it's that you cannot get enough Love in your life.

 

[dtgold88]

I don't think it's Kevin Love, but to be honest, it doesn't really matter if the player he posts is better or worse defensively because either way it supports my argument. My argument is just to simply show that defensive metrics are not always accurate in determining the players defensive abilities. That there are more determining factors to show that a player is a great defender if the numbers don't reflect it.

If he posts another great defender with worse numbers, its strengthens that the metrics are fallable.

If he posts a bad defender, it even furthers the argument the numbers are not a great metric because it's valuing that guy above a guy like Joe Dumars who is one of the greatest defensive SG's in the NBA's history.

I mean, the entire purpose is to show that the numbers can be flawed and either way he posts, it's going to show that. LOL.

It proves my point......when the numbers are what you want they support you. If not what you want they are flawed.

 

[CitySushi]

It proves my point......when the numbers are what you want they support you. If not what you want they are flawed.

No, what it supports is that defensive metrics overall are not the greatest indicator of defensive strength, more so than any other aspect in basketball. There are outliers in every scenario and you posting that Kyrie has superior defensive metrics over Joe Dumars shows that. Your point of contention is that Klay doesn't have the metrics to support he is a good defensive player. I've said that it's hard to quantify what he does and that he can be an outlier. You then FURTHERED that argument by showing statistics saying Kyrie is a superior defender to Joe Dumars.

Dude you just gave yourself up here. Your sole point of contention in that Klay is not an Elite defender is because the numbers don't support it. I then showed you that there are in fact outliers that suggest otherwise. You then countered with another player showing that based of off metrics that he's superior to a guy who's undisputed in being better than the other on the defensive end.

So there you have it. You can justify whatever you like here, but you plainly and clearly just supported my argument in that numbers are not the greatest indicator of defensive ability.

 

[dtgold88]

No, what it supports is that defensive metrics overall are not the greatest indicator of defensive strength, more so than any other aspect in basketball. There are outliers in every scenario and you posting that Kyrie has superior defensive metrics over Joe Dumars shows that. Your point of contention is that Klay doesn't have the metrics to support he is a good defensive player. I've said that it's hard to quantify what he does and that he can be an outlier. You then FURTHERED that argument by showing statistics saying Kyrie is a superior defender to Joe Dumars.

Dude you just gave yourself up here. Your sole point of contention in that Klay is not an Elite defender is because the numbers don't support it. I then showed you that there are in fact outliers that suggest otherwise. You then countered with another player showing that based of off metrics that he's superior to a guy who's undisputed in being better than the other on the defensive end.

So there you have it. You can justify whatever you like here, but you plainly and clearly just supported my argument in that numbers are not the greatest indicator of defensive ability.

Never said they were the best way to support defense.....but you'll sure use them when they help your point, wont ya? Like most.

and that's my point.

 

[CitySushi]

DT: Klay doesn't have the metrics to support he's a great defender.
Me: Klay is an Elite level defender. He's an outlier with metrics.
DT: Well Kyrie Irving has better defensive metrics than Joe Dumars.
Me: ???? Ok, well that just supports my argument.
DT: No, this supports my argument.
Me: Wait, wut?

 

[CitySushi]

Never said they were the best way to support defense.....but you'll sure use them when they help your point, wont ya? Like most.

and that's my point.

So you're really going to sit there and say that your main point countering Klay isn't a great defensive player is because of metrics? Really? But then as soon as I counter your argument you say numbers don't mean shit. LOL Ok.

 

[dtgold88]

So you're really going to sit there and say that your main point countering Klay isn't a great defensive player is because of metrics? Really? But then as soon as I counter your argument you say numbers don't mean shit. LOL Ok.

No....what I'm saying is what you had also said. Hard to know. sure we can watch and be pretty sure Klay is very good. Maybe great. But to know he's (or anyone is) elite? Tough to be so sure.

 

[tlance]

I understand just fine. You like Klay as a defender. You don't like cousins. You don't realize it's possible Cousins did his usual (nothing) but Klay also got beat like a drum.

It is comical you actually believe Klay wanted to follow Lou to his left only to get twisted like a pretzel and have to then try and catch up to his right.

Ok, let's try again.

Basketball is a team sport. 5 on 5.

Offensive Coaches design offensive schemes/sets to put players in position to score. Defensively, coaches also design coverages to stop the offensive concepts.

They are not playing 1 on 1 out there. Teammates depend on each other doing their job to defend certain actions, especially ball screens.

Cousins was 100% in the wrong place. Because you guard a shooter coming off a ball screen in 1 of 3 ways:

ICE, Hedge, or Monster

He was in the wrong spot for all 3. It was defintely a busted coverage. Klay was in the right spot for ICE. So I am using my knowledge of ball screen coverage to assume 1 player was wrong and not both.

It is possible Klay was wrong too, but not likely in this case when Boogie was definitely, 100% in the wrong place. Klay's job in ICE was to stop Williams from going right and using the screen, which he did.

But again, until you can actually admit you don't know something, we can't have a productive conversation about this.

 

[dtgold88]

Ok, let's try again.

Basketball is a team sport. 5 on 5.

Offensive Coaches design offensive schemes/sets to put players in position to score. Defensively, coaches also design coverages to stop the offensive concepts.

They are not playing 1 on 1 out there. Teammates depend on each other doing their job to defend certain actions, especially ball screens.

Cousins was 100% in the wrong place. Because you guard a shooter coming off a ball screen in 1 of 3 ways:

ICE, Hedge, or Monster

He was in the wrong spot for all 3. It was defintely a busted coverage. Klay was in the right spot for ICE. So I am using my knowledge of ball screen coverage to assume 1 player was wrong and not both.

It is possible Klay was wrong too, but not likely in this case when Boogie was definitely, 100% in the wrong place. Klay's job in ICE was to stop Williams from going right and using the screen, which he did.

But again, until you can actually admit you don't know something, we can't have a productive conversation about this.

I'm not trying to pretend I know everything (like you think you do). It is clear cousins was being Cousins. also clear Klay got twisted like a pretzel and it wasn't his intention.

I am 100% certain if this was a player you did not like as a defender on Lou you'd have written your summation as though he was beat.

100% certain.

 

[tlance]

I'm not trying to pretend I know everything (like you think you do). It is clear cousins was being Cousins. also clear Klay got twisted like a pretzel and it wasn't his intention.

I am 100% certain if this was a player you did not like as a defender on Lou you'd have written your summation as though he was beat.

100% certain.

That is where you are wrong.

Because I also said in first line of my first post that Klay got beat and that he could have guarded it better for sure.

But assuming ICE was indeed the coverage, if we are assigning blame this is like 70% Cousins and 30% Klay. If it was supposed to be a hedge or a monster they were both very wrong and that wouldn't even make sense.

I can be objective. But you want to make it seem like Klay got eviscerated by Lou Williams last night because YOU have an anti Klay agenda. That wasn't the case at all.

But yes. Lou did get the best of him here. Just not as badly as the untrained eye may want to believe.

 

[tlance]

I'm not trying to pretend I know everything (like you think you do). It is clear cousins was being Cousins. also clear Klay got twisted like a pretzel and it wasn't his intention.

I am 100% certain if this was a player you did not like as a defender on Lou you'd have written your summation as though he was beat.

100% certain.

And FYI, I am pretty good at being objective.

I can be critical of players I like when they mess up. And those that have been here awhile know this.

But you brought up Klay because you were fishing for a reason to bash him. I have reason and knowledge on my side here. And I never once said Klay was blameless on the play in question. Just that he got a lot closer to doing his job than Boogie did to doing his.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Got hurt bc he tripped