Penn State or Michigan? Which team is more likely to end Ohio State's Big Ten East dominance?

ericd7633 · Jul 5, 2020

Across The Field said:
Neither are you, yet here you are firing off accusations at me. Strange.

It's called the 2019 season. You're claiming there isn't much difference. You need to prove it, because there's an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the claim I'm making. You've given one data point(losing to PSU by the same amount).

Across The Field · Jul 5, 2020

ericd7633 said:
It's called the 2019 season. You're claiming there isn't much difference. You need to prove it, because there's an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the claim I'm making. You've given one data point(losing to PSU by the same amount).

Played in the same division, one went 9-4 and the other went 8-5. Done.

LOL "overwhelming amount"

Thiefery · Jul 5, 2020

so are we still having a piss argument that if anyone challenges tosu in the East it will be Michigan, not psu? Because it will be Michigan, not psu

ericd7633 · Jul 5, 2020

Across The Field said:
Played in the same division, one went 9-4 and the other went 8-5. Done.

LOL "overwhelming amount"

And yet, despite playing in the same division, one team beat 5 bowl eligible teams, while the other beat none. One had two top 15 wins, the other had none.

Sagarin Rank:
12
39

Massey Rank:
12
41

A&H Rank:
20
42

ESPN FPI Rank:
12
36

Efficiency Rank:
15
29

SOR Rank:
13
33

39-14 at Indiana

Across The Field · Jul 5, 2020

ericd7633 said:
And yet, despite playing in the same division, one team beat 5 bowl eligible teams, while the other beat none. One had two top 15 wins, the other had none.

Sagarin Rank:
12
39

Massey Rank:
12
41

A&H Rank:
20
42

ESPN FPI Rank:
12
36

Efficiency Rank:
15
29

SOR Rank:
13
33

39-14 at Indiana

Yet they were 1 game apart. Also, I would've liked to see how that game would've gone if michigan was missing their starting QB and #1 WR (Patterson and Collins) and Indiana had Penix and Philyor. Probably a lot different. I've already said michigan was better, but not overwhelmingly.

Across The Field · Jul 5, 2020

Thiefery said:
so are we still having a piss argument that if anyone challenges tosu in the East it will be Michigan, not psu? Because it will be Michigan, not psu

Penn State has challenged OSU 3 of the last 4 years. They won the division in 2016, was 2nd to OSU only because of a massive OSU comeback win against them in 2017, and finished 2nd against last year while giving OSU the closest game of the entire regular season. michigan... not so much.

ericd7633 · Jul 5, 2020

Across The Field said:
Yet they were 1 game apart. Also, I would've liked to see how that game would've gone if michigan was missing their starting QB and #1 WR (Patterson and Collins) and Indiana had Penix and Philyor. Probably a lot different. I've already said michigan was better, but not overwhelmingly.

Yeah, one game apart despite playing a MUCH easier schedule. Ball State, EIU, UConn in OOC, then the worst 3 teams in the West. There wasn't much difference between Ramsey and Penix as far as performance last year. Plus Ramsey has a ton of experience. And Penix had the benefit of only playing against all the shitty teams. And one WR isn't making up a 25 point difference.

Michigan was pretty overwhelming better.

Across The Field · Jul 5, 2020

ericd7633 said:
Yeah, one game apart despite playing a MUCH easier schedule. Ball State, EIU, UConn in OOC, then the worst 3 teams in the West. There wasn't much difference between Ramsey and Penix as far as performance last year. Plus Ramsey has a ton of experience. And Penix had the benefit of only playing against all the shitty teams. And one WR isn't making up a 25 point difference.

Michigan was pretty overwhelming better.

Having those two back while michigan was missing their top QB and top WR, instead of the other way around, would've made a pretty big difference. Collins was by far their best playmaker that game, and Patterson was lightyears ahead of both McCaffrey and Milton. Those two do not look impressive whatsoever. It's what makes me think michigan could easily lose 5 games this year if not more.

ericd7633 · Jul 5, 2020

Across The Field said:
Having those two back while michigan was missing their top QB and top WR, instead of the other way around, would've made a pretty big difference. Collins was by far their best playmaker that game, and Patterson was lightyears ahead of both McCaffrey and Milton. Those two do not look impressive whatsoever. It's what makes me think michigan could easily lose 5 games this year if not more.

Having Penix and Philyor wouldn't have made up the 25 point difference. Would Michigan not having Patterson and Collins made the game closer, yeah probably. But if all things were equal that game is still a blowout because Michigan proved to be the significantly better team through the course of the season. You can't say Ramsey playing was the reason they lost by that much, when he was the main reason they kept it close against PSU.

Across The Field · Jul 5, 2020

ericd7633 said:
Having Penix and Philyor wouldn't have made up the 25 point difference. Would Michigan not having Patterson and Collins made the game closer, yeah probably. But if all things were equal that game is still a blowout because Michigan proved to be the significantly better team through the course of the season. You can't say Ramsey playing was the reason they lost by that much, when he was the main reason they kept it close against PSU.

Not having Patterson and Collins would've undoubtedly made that a very close game, probably one Indiana wins, especially if they had Philyor. I've seen nothing to think either of michigan's backup QBs were worth a damn last year.

Ramsey had a good game against PSU, which was one I'm sure the Nittany Lions were looking past since they went to Columbus the week after.

At any rate, I (and the majority of the nation most likely) would rather watch PSU and Indiana as opposed to Cal and USC. It's a meaningless game that will have 0 impact on the national football landscape. Meanwhile, if IU were to pull off the upset of PSU, it would have a major impact for both the B1G and the national rankings.

ericd7633 · Jul 5, 2020

Across The Field said:
Not having Patterson and Collins would've undoubtedly made that a very close game, probably one Indiana wins, especially if they had Philyor. I've seen nothing to think either of michigan's backup QBs were worth a damn last year.

Ramsey had a good game against PSU, which was one I'm sure the Nittany Lions were looking past since they went to Columbus the week after.

At any rate, I (and the majority of the nation most likely) would rather watch PSU and Indiana as opposed to Cal and USC. It's a meaningless game that will have 0 impact on the national football landscape. Meanwhile, if IU were to pull off the upset of PSU, it would have a major impact for both the B1G and the national rankings.

Now we're really getting into the weeds of hypothetical BS. IU not having Penix and Philyor didn't result in the reason why IU got blown out.

In any event, I had it last for a reason because it's only one singing data point. You conveniently didn't respond to anything else.

Across The Field · Jul 5, 2020

ericd7633 said:
Now we're really getting into the weeds of hypothetical BS. IU not having Penix and Philyor didn't result in the reason why IU got blown out.

In any event, I had it last for a reason because it's only one singing data point. You conveniently didn't respond to anything else.

It's ignorant to say that missing your starting QB and top offensive weapon doesn't impact a game like that. It was a close game through the first half and 10 minutes of the 3rd quarter until michigan finally pulled away. Putting michigan in the same situation likely would've meant an IU win. That's the point.

I have no idea what you're talking about with that second part. I don't know what a "singing data point" is, so I'm not sure how I could've responded to it in the first place.

ericd7633 · Jul 5, 2020

Across The Field said:
It's ignorant to say that missing your starting QB and top offensive weapon doesn't impact a game like that. It was a close game through the first half and 10 minutes of the 3rd quarter until michigan finally pulled away. Putting michigan in the same situation likely would've meant an IU win. That's the point.

I have no idea what you're talking about with that second part. I don't know what a "singing data point" is, so I'm not sure how I could've responded to it in the first place.

It's not when Ramsey and Penix have essentially the same production last year. And no Philyor isn't making up a 25 point difference. He's a good WR, but he probably isn't even getting drafted next season. It's not like they were without Ja' Marr Chase.

My bad. Autocorrect. Singular data point. You didn't respond to anything else. Was my point.

Across The Field · Jul 5, 2020

ericd7633 said:
It's not when Ramsey and Penix have essentially the same production last year. And no Philyor isn't making up a 25 point difference. He's a good WR, but he probably isn't even getting drafted next season. It's not like they were without Ja' Marr Chase.

My bad. Autocorrect. Singular data point. You didn't respond to anything else. Was my point.

My guess is he is drafted. There are definitely worse WRs who are drafted every year. I didn't say he would make up a 25 point difference. Penix is a mobile QB who also ended up with better qualitative passing numbers than Ramsey. That can make a difference, yes. And I did respond with something else. They were only one game worse record-wise. It also didn't help matters when they played that not only did Penix and Philyor not play at all, but Ramsey, Stevie Scott, Ty Fryfogle, and their starting LT were all injured in that game as well. Indiana started off playing extremely well, practically moving the ball at will on two of their first three possessions (2 TD drives; the third was an INT at the michigan 31) before these injuries happened. Injuries are part of the game, but it's ignorant to say that also didn't play a huge part in michigan finally being able to pull away later on in the game.

Indiana is a solid football program, definitely better than Cal, which is why I'd put their game with PSU well above Cal-ASU or Cal-USC. The reasons are obvious.

ericd7633 · Jul 5, 2020

Across The Field said:
My guess is he is drafted. There are definitely worse WRs who are drafted every year. I didn't say he would make up a 25 point difference. Penix is a mobile QB who also ended up with better qualitative passing numbers than Ramsey. That can make a difference, yes. And I did respond with something else. They were only one game worse record-wise. It also didn't help matters when they played that not only did Penix and Philyor not play at all, but Ramsey, Stevie Scott, Ty Fryfogle, and their starting LT were all injured in that game as well. Indiana started off playing extremely well, practically moving the ball at will on two of their first three possessions (2 TD drives; the third was an INT at the michigan 31) before these injuries happened. Injuries are part of the game, but it's ignorant to say that also didn't play a huge part in michigan finally being able to pull away later on in the game.

Indiana is a solid football program, definitely better than Cal, which is why I'd put their game with PSU well above Cal-ASU or Cal-USC. The reasons are obvious.

Penix also had the benefit of playing all the shitty teams on the schedule. They had nearly the same QBR and Ramsey had to play against OSU, PSU, Michigan and Tennessee. The 4 toughest games they played.

But anyway, you keep mentioning this game, and not responding to anything else I said. I'm not the only one who thinks Michigan was significantly better. Hell IU didn't even receive a vote in the final AP poll, where 40 other teams did. That's how bad their schedule was.

We Are Decent · Jul 6, 2020

Thiefery said:
so are we still having a piss argument that if anyone challenges tosu in the East it will be Michigan, not psu? Because it will be Michigan, not psu

What possibly points to Michigan being better than Penn State?

TrustMeIamRight · Jul 6, 2020

Across The Field said:
1. Not sure how you're not understanding this. In the past years, he's had the benefit of an experienced veteran QB that was developed somewhere else. This year, he's got nothing but inexperience at the QB position, and it's guys that he's been tasked with developing, something he has failed to demonstrate he can do successfully to this point.

Also, Harbaugh has faced PSU and Wisconsin at home twice. We're not talking about it being like 8 or 9 games that he's won. I fail to see how games that were played 2 and 4 years ago with very different players on both sides suddenly mean so much.

2. Brown is there, but as we saw last year, he wasn't as effective without Mattison and Washington. Now he has two more new coaches to break in. It's not unfair to be skeptical of their defense, especially considering they lost 5 defensive players to the draft a couple months ago.

3. Not sure what years you're saying they were better. 2016 was michigan's best team by far and they were better than PSU and Wisconsin that year. 2018 Wisconsin was 8-5 and 2018 PSU was 9-4 while michigan won 10 games. I'd take 2019 PSU's offense over 2020 michigan's, and when does Wisconsin ever struggle to have dominant rushing offenses and high end offensive lines? Why would that suddenly end?

And who/when did I last have to defend from the B1G that beat OSU? I don't remember ever pimping any B1G team out to anyone that beat OSU.

Do you ever take a break from hating on Michigan? It is the off-season. Go enjoy the sun :suds:

My

-- UM never had an 'established veteran QB developed elsewhere'. They had a QB from Iowa who lost his starting job. They had a QB from Houston who lost his starting job. They had a highly touted HS recruit who was solid, but not elite.
Iowa QB -- he developed and actually was drafted.
Houston QB -- he was mediocre at best.
Ole Miss QB -- like he did at Ole Miss -- he'd put up great numbers against lesser teams, but struggled against better competition. Was a quality college QB, but not elite (if he had accuracy on deeper throws, he could have been elite)

UM and Harbaugh's issue are QB has been the recruits they've brought in. They didn't have a QB recruit the year he signed on at UM and we had nothing in the QB room waiting for him.
Year 2 -- they signed Brandon Peters. He didn't pan out. Good enough to start at a mediocre school, like Illinois, but he was not good.
Year 3 -- they signed McCaffrey and Joe Milton. McCaffrey was the top signed QB, but he needed to add weight. Milton was the project -- NFL body and NFL arm, but lacked accuracy and football IQ.
Year 4 -- Cade McNamara -- Quality recruit, but don't know much about him, other than he threw for like 11,000 yards in HS?!?

Personally, I think the biggest problem is the fact UM has had a different OC essentially every year. Jedd Fisch was year 1. I don't remember if they had one in year 2?!? Then they had Pep Hamilton. Now Josh Gattis.
It is tough to develop QB's when you change OC's, where QB's have to learn all new playbooks and last year they changed the type of offensive they are running.
UM went from pro style, wanting to pound it on the ground. Then they wanted to run a hybrid pro style. Now they want to spread it out.
We can't make up our mind what type of team we want to be.

Across The Field · Jul 6, 2020

TrustMeIamRight said:
Do you ever take a break from hating on Michigan? It is the off-season. Go enjoy the sun

My -- UM never had an 'established veteran QB developed elsewhere'. They had a QB from Iowa who lost his starting job. They had a QB from Houston who lost his starting job. They had a highly touted HS recruit who was solid, but not elite.
Iowa QB -- he developed and actually was drafted.
Houston QB -- he was mediocre at best.
Ole Miss QB -- like he did at Ole Miss -- he'd put up great numbers against lesser teams, but struggled against better competition. Was a quality college QB, but not elite (if he had accuracy on deeper throws, he could have been elite)

UM and Harbaugh's issue are QB has been the recruits they've brought in. They didn't have a QB recruit the year he signed on at UM and we had nothing in the QB room waiting for him.
Year 2 -- they signed Brandon Peters. He didn't pan out. Good enough to start at a mediocre school, like Illinois, but he was not good.
Year 3 -- they signed McCaffrey and Joe Milton. McCaffrey was the top signed QB, but he needed to add weight. Milton was the project -- NFL body and NFL arm, but lacked accuracy and football IQ.
Year 4 -- Cade McNamara -- Quality recruit, but don't know much about him, other than he threw for like 11,000 yards in HS?!?

Personally, I think the biggest problem is the fact UM has had a different OC essentially every year. Jedd Fisch was year 1. I don't remember if they had one in year 2?!? Then they had Pep Hamilton. Now Josh Gattis.
It is tough to develop QB's when you change OC's, where QB's have to learn all new playbooks and last year they changed the type of offensive they are running.
UM went from pro style, wanting to pound it on the ground. Then they wanted to run a hybrid pro style. Now they want to spread it out.
We can't make up our mind what type of team we want to be.

What this tells me is basically what I've said this entire time. Harbaugh can't develop QBs. Peters, McCaffrey, Milton, Patterson have all played for Harbaugh now, and none of them ended up becoming anything (jury is still out on McCaffrey and Milton, but I didn't see anything good from either of them last year). That was supposed to be his thing - developing QBs into studs. He hasn't done it once. If they keep switching back and forth in regards to their offensive system, that's entirely on Harbaugh. Good head coaches don't have that issue.

Wamu · Jul 6, 2020

TrustMeIamRight said:
Do you ever take a break from hating on Michigan? It is the off-season. Go enjoy the sun

My -- UM never had an 'established veteran QB developed elsewhere'. They had a QB from Iowa who lost his starting job. They had a QB from Houston who lost his starting job. They had a highly touted HS recruit who was solid, but not elite.
Iowa QB -- he developed and actually was drafted.
Houston QB -- he was mediocre at best.
Ole Miss QB -- like he did at Ole Miss -- he'd put up great numbers against lesser teams, but struggled against better competition. Was a quality college QB, but not elite (if he had accuracy on deeper throws, he could have been elite)

UM and Harbaugh's issue are QB has been the recruits they've brought in. They didn't have a QB recruit the year he signed on at UM and we had nothing in the QB room waiting for him.
Year 2 -- they signed Brandon Peters. He didn't pan out. Good enough to start at a mediocre school, like Illinois, but he was not good.
Year 3 -- they signed McCaffrey and Joe Milton. McCaffrey was the top signed QB, but he needed to add weight. Milton was the project -- NFL body and NFL arm, but lacked accuracy and football IQ.
Year 4 -- Cade McNamara -- Quality recruit, but don't know much about him, other than he threw for like 11,000 yards in HS?!?

Personally, I think the biggest problem is the fact UM has had a different OC essentially every year. Jedd Fisch was year 1. I don't remember if they had one in year 2?!? Then they had Pep Hamilton. Now Josh Gattis.
It is tough to develop QB's when you change OC's, where QB's have to learn all new playbooks and last year they changed the type of offensive they are running.
UM went from pro style, wanting to pound it on the ground. Then they wanted to run a hybrid pro style. Now they want to spread it out.
We can't make up our mind what type of team we want to be.

A question about hating a team. Is it really hatred mentioning facts like a certain overhyped coach hasn't won anything in 5 years?

TrustMeIamRight · Jul 6, 2020

Across The Field said:
What this tells me is basically what I've said this entire time. Harbaugh can't develop QBs. Peters, McCaffrey, Milton, Patterson have all played for Harbaugh now, and none of them ended up becoming anything (jury is still out on McCaffrey and Milton, but I didn't see anything good from either of them last year). That was supposed to be his thing - developing QBs into studs. He hasn't done it once. If they keep switching back and forth in regards to their offensive system, that's entirely on Harbaugh. Good head coaches don't have that issue.

The only one he has failed on is Peters. He could make throws but had zero pocket presence and he transferred out when he saw he wasn't going to play.
Milton and McCaffrey were redshirted as when they became eligible -- Patterson transferred in. Milton -- I am not sure if he'd start anywhere, which is a shame as he has the strongest arm and most NFL ready body of any B1G QB. He was always a project and some guess, no matter how much work you put in, the accuracy just isn't there.
McCaffrey has the talent and has shown it with arm and legs at different times. Being able to stay healthy is another thing though. He broke his collar bone and suffered a major concussion in the times he has played.
McNamara -- I cant say I know much about.
Personally -- I think the fact we didn't go after JT Daniels or any other QB transfer says UM is very comfortable with what we have coming up.
Only time will tell though. I think, just having the same OC and same playbook/concepts, etc will be a huge boost for the QBs.

Im interested to see what they will look like with some of the receivers they have now. Nico Collins will be one of the best WRs in the B1G and then we have a bunch of smaller, faster WR's, instead of the bigger body guys. So I'm interested to see what they look like in the offense.

Penn State or Michigan? Which team is more likely to end Ohio State's Big Ten East dominance?

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