Even in 2000, Ownership was Cheap

NWinAZ · Apr 2, 2020

Trade Retrospective: How the Mariners lost Juan Gonzalez

wazzu31 · Apr 3, 2020

NWinAZ said:
Trade Retrospective: How the Mariners lost Juan Gonzalez

That was more of the Pat Gillick problem than the ownership IMO. He was so obsessed with his fab 5 of top pitching prospects he didn’t want to get rid of any of them. It was kind of an early cursor to Jack Z’s philosophy of not making a trade that he didn’t win on paper.

I know Franklin had one good season as a starter and a good season as a closer but really none of them made a dent in the MLB to be deemed untouchable.

NWinAZ · Apr 3, 2020

wazzu31 said:
That was more of the Pat Gillick problem than the ownership IMO. He was so obsessed with his fab 5 of top pitching prospects he didn’t want to get rid of any of them. It was kind of an early cursor to Jack Z’s philosophy of not making a trade that he didn’t win on paper.

I know Franklin had one good season as a starter and a good season as a closer but really none of them made a dent in the MLB to be deemed untouchable.

No this one was on ownership who refused to pay the $3M on Juan's contract. Deal was done until they blocked it.

wazzu31 · Apr 3, 2020

NWinAZ said:
No this one was on ownership who refused to pay the $3M on Juan's contract. Deal was done until they blocked it.

I’m necessarily saying the front office did nothing wrong. But I’m also saying Lou wanted out of Seattle because of Pat Gillick’s refusal to make impact trades. Woody really screwed up on deals but at least he tried. Kind of why I don’t have vitriol the way some fans do with Bavasi.

NWinAZ · Apr 4, 2020

wazzu31 said:
I’m necessarily saying the front office did nothing wrong. But I’m also saying Lou wanted out of Seattle because of Pat Gillick’s refusal to make impact trades. Woody really screwed up on deals but at least he tried. Kind of why I don’t have vitriol the way some fans do with Bavasi.

Ya, I know your stance on Gillick....lol. But if this deal, or lack there of, was because of ownership and their cheapness, so what is to say Gillick attempted impact trades and ownership vetoed them as well? I guess I am less judgmental on lack of deals M's GM's didn't make as opposed to deals they did make.

wazzu31 · Apr 4, 2020

NWinAZ said:
Ya, I know your stance on Gillick....lol. But if this deal, or lack there of, was because of ownership and their cheapness, so what is to say Gillick attempted impact trades and ownership vetoed them as well? I guess I am less judgmental on lack of deals M's GM's didn't make as opposed to deals they did make.

Touche, you know I despise Gillick (at least with him as the Mariners GM) so I am bias when I read the article. To me, the article was just an article of saying X happened except no sources. Very well could be true and I could be wrong. But...in the same know, Gonzalez was a shell and the Mariners had 5 top pitching prospects that Pat could’ve packed for a legit upgrade over Al Martin, David Bell or Dan Wilson (the three weakest links on the team in 2001).

NWinAZ · Apr 5, 2020

wazzu31 said:
Mariners had 5 top pitching prospects that Pat could’ve packed for a legit upgrade over Al Martin, David Bell or Dan Wilson (the three weakest links on the team in 2001).

I disagree with Wilson. He brought leadership and controlled the staff in my opinion. Martin I never understood and Bell was okay. He was kind of a throwback player.

wazzu31 · Apr 5, 2020

NWinAZ said:
I disagree with Wilson. He brought leadership and controlled the staff in my opinion. Martin I never understood and Bell was okay. He was kind of a throwback player.

Don’t get me wrong. I love Dan Wilson and I think he was instrumental to the organization rebuild but just look at 2001. Which catcher had more highlight plays? Just my opinion is LF, 3B and C were the biggest holes and they filled none. I mean, none would’ve matter IMO because of the 9/11 convo because everyone aged it seemed a decade from when the attack happened until the playoffs.

SeattleCoug · Apr 6, 2020

To be fair they did try to upgrade Bell, it was just too late after 2001 and of course in Mariner Fashion Cirillo sucked

NWinAZ · Apr 7, 2020

SeattleCoug said:
To be fair they did try to upgrade Bell, it was just too late after 2001 and of course in Mariner Fashion Cirillo sucked

I've never seen a guy fall off the baseball planet from one year to the next like Cirillo.

NWinAZ · Apr 7, 2020

Not a owner cheapness thing, but another trade that didn't happen:

This was how it was structured: 2000 Trade

Mariners get: Octavio Dotel, Armando Benitez and Roger Cedeno

Mets get: Ken Griffey Jr.

The deal soon fell through, because Junior used his 10-and-5 rights to veto the trade.

Let’s hop in our time machine, though, and like the great explorers Bill and Ted, take a look at the six ways the baseball world changes if Griffey said yes.

SeattleCoug · Apr 8, 2020

NWinAZ said:
Not a owner cheapness thing, but another trade that didn't happen:

This was how it was structured: 2000 Trade

Mariners get: Octavio Dotel, Armando Benitez and Roger Cedeno

Mets get: Ken Griffey Jr.

The deal soon fell through, because Junior used his 10-and-5 rights to veto the trade.

Let’s hop in our time machine, though, and like the great explorers Bill and Ted, take a look at the six ways the baseball world changes if Griffey said yes.

I do remember that although I think it worked out ok for the Mariners. Getting Cameron probably far outweighed the help the Dotel and Benitez would have provided in the bullpen. Was Dotel actually a starter then? Cant remember

NWinAZ · Apr 8, 2020

SeattleCoug said:
I do remember that although I think it worked out ok for the Mariners. Getting Cameron probably far outweighed the help the Dotel and Benitez would have provided in the bullpen. Was Dotel actually a starter then? Cant remember

Yes, this one worked out for us in my opinion as well. That would have been a bad hall for us. Thank you Jr.

NWinAZ · Apr 12, 2020

A couple more trades that didn't happen:

1- Walker & Miller for Zimmerman & Desmond.

Trade Retrospective: That time the Mariners almost traded Taijuan Walker

2- Fermin for Wickman or Rivera

Mariners Trade Retrospective: How Mariano Rivera almost came to Seattle

NWinAZ · Apr 12, 2020

Another Fact or Two:

1991 Draft:

With the 11th Pick we chose Shawn Estes...13th and 14th picks were Manny Ramirez and Cliff Floyd...lol.

35th Round Pick for Mariners: Steve McNair
51st Round Pick for Mariners: Mark Fields (For you Coug fans...both of you)

SeattleCoug · Apr 14, 2020

NWinAZ said:
2- Fermin for Wickman or Rivera

Mariners Trade Retrospective: How Mariano Rivera almost came to Seattle

I do remember this one being talked about.

The article provides a good point tho:
"And after the injury to Randy Johnson in 1996, Seattle would have likely given Rivera a spot in the rotation.

This is a trade that certainly wouldn’t have been a loss for Seattle, but it doesn’t mean that the Mariners would have had the best closer in baseball history. We have no idea how Rivera would have reacted to the trade, if the Mariners could use him properly, or if they could continue his development."

Meaning I could totally see the M's misusing him and him not being near the same

NWinAZ · Apr 14, 2020

SeattleCoug said:
I do remember this one being talked about.

The article provides a good point tho:
"And after the injury to Randy Johnson in 1996, Seattle would have likely given Rivera a spot in the rotation.

This is a trade that certainly wouldn’t have been a loss for Seattle, but it doesn’t mean that the Mariners would have had the best closer in baseball history. We have no idea how Rivera would have reacted to the trade, if the Mariners could use him properly, or if they could continue his development."

Meaning I could totally see the M's misusing him and him not being near the same

Oh no, we would have f*ck him up in the worst possible way. That I have no doubt of.

NWinAZ · Apr 14, 2020

Here is another ALMOST deal for Rivera that would have been nuts!!!

The Seattle Mariners were ready to send Johnson and another player to the Yankees in exchange for (it's difficult to write this it seems so incredible) Ramiro Mendoza, Ricky Ledee and Mariano Rivera.

New York Yankees 1997: Trade Mariano Rivera for Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez

wazzu31 · Apr 18, 2020

SeattleCoug said:
To be fair they did try to upgrade Bell, it was just too late after 2001 and of course in Mariner Fashion Cirillo sucked

They didn’t try though in 2001. But to be fair to them, he came within a few votes of being the starting 3B for the AL in the all star game. I’m not trying to throw anyone under the bus the team was rock solid until 9/11, but they had the prospects and money at the time to upgrade those positions IMO and didn’t. I will die on a hill saying that Gillick was more responsible than ownership, and I think my feelings were backed up by they gave Gillick full control and when he didn’t deliver they hired an unqualified yes man in Bavasi.

wazzu31 · Apr 18, 2020

NWinAZ said:
Another Fact or Two:

1991 Draft:

With the 11th Pick we chose Shawn Estes...13th and 14th picks were Manny Ramirez and Cliff Floyd...lol.

35th Round Pick for Mariners: Steve McNair
51st Round Pick for Mariners: Mark Fields (For you Coug fans...both of you)

Both of us? There are more real Cougs in Seattle Metro than there are Huskies. You go to UW to move out of Seattle, you go to local community colleges to root for UW.

Even in 2000, Ownership was Cheap

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