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idseer

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so whitesox.com is dragging out a top 5 at every position thing and i thought maybe we could see our versions right here and now. i will not go back prior to 1950 (you can draw whatever line you like) as i want to use only players i've seen. for instance .. i know appling was the greatest ss but i never saw him play. i also insisted on at least 3 seasons played, otherwise albert belle would have definitely been in left field. i also didn't include dh. i also included honorable mentions for sp because there are just so many good ones.

my top 5 at every position:


1b:
frank thomas
dick allen
paul konerko
jose abreu
eddie robinson

2b:
nellie fox
jorge orta
ray durham
don buford
tadahito iguchi

3b:
robin ventura
bill melton
bubba phillips
pete ward
eric soderholm

ss:
luis aparicio
ozzie guillen
alex ramirez
chico carrasquel
ron hanson

c:
carlton fisk
sherman lollar
a. j. pierzynski
brian downing
ron karkovice

lf:
minnie minoso
carlos lee
tim raines
rudy law
carlos may

cf:
chet lemon
ken henderson
lance Johnson
adam eaton
rudy law

rf:
harold baines
magglio ordonez
jermaine dye
floyd robinson
jim rivera

sp:
billy pierce
jack mcdowell
lamarr hoyt
freddie garcia
mark buehrle

*********

honorable mentions:

gary peters
tommy john
joel horlen
jim katt
wilbur wood
chris sale

rp:
hoyt wilhelm
bobby thigpen
roberto hernandez
keith foulke
gerry staley
 

Mingo

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Great list, but you go to jail for forgetting Joe Crede at 3rd base and Gary Peters not a starting pitcher.

Also - I would have loved to see Landis and Berry in CF somewhere. Peters - Landis and Berry - you are probably just too young a pup to have appreciated them. Peters was the best hitting pitcher I can recall - on top of everything else.
 

idseer

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Great list, but you go to jail for forgetting Joe Crede at 3rd base and Gary Peters not a starting pitcher.

Also - I would have loved to see Landis and Berry in CF somewhere. Peters - Landis and Berry - you are probably just too young a pup to have appreciated them. Peters was the best hitting pitcher I can recall - on top of everything else.
wow! don't know how i missed crede! i'd have to drop soderholm and squeeze crede into 3rd place there.
i certainly considered landis and berry but both were so bad at the plate i just couldn't go with them. after pierce, peters was my favorite pitcher for the sox but i just couldn't see a way to get him into the top 5.

btw, i'm guessing i'm a little older than you. :P
 

Mingo

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wow! don't know how i missed crede! i'd have to drop soderholm and squeeze crede into 3rd place there.
i certainly considered landis and berry but both were so bad at the plate i just couldn't go with them. after pierce, peters was my favorite pitcher for the sox but i just couldn't see a way to get him into the top 5.

btw, i'm guessing i'm a little older than you. :P


LOL - well I'm 68.

Landis and Berry both played when no one had a good BA - batters struggled to get to 300 to win the batting title. Both would have had DWARs (whatever that is) that saved 20 runs a year.

Lamar Hoyt had one spectular year and another fairly good one, but had pain pill issues - If I remember correctly.

Freddy Garcia - came to the Sox on the downside of his career - Wilbur Wood should be his replacement. Wilbur won a couple of double headers -and had possibly the best knuckle ball in baseball history.
 

Jiddy

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LOL - well I'm 68.

Landis and Berry both played when no one had a good BA - batters struggled to get to 300 to win the batting title. Both would have had DWARs (whatever that is) that saved 20 runs a year.

Lamar Hoyt had one spectular year and another fairly good one, but had pain pill issues - If I remember correctly.

Freddy Garcia - came to the Sox on the downside of his career - Wilbur Wood should be his replacement. Wilbur won a couple of double headers -and had possibly the best knuckle ball in baseball history.

You could argue quite a few over Freddy...I can't go that far back for Wood as I'm only 41, but I can think of a more than a few just off the top of my head that should be in over him...

Sale (lulz this was obv coming from me), Garland, Alvarez, Fernandez.
 

Jiddy

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You could argue quite a few over Freddie...I can't go that far back for Wood as I'm only 41, but I can think of a more than a few just off the top of my head that should be in over him...

Sale (lulz this was obv coming from me), Garland, Alvarez, Fernandez.

BTW, this is no knock on Freddy...LOL, I get a kick just thinking about how much Hawk would gush over him. He was so hype when we brought him over from Seattle.
 

Mingo

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BTW, this is no knock on Freddy...LOL, I get a kick just thinking about how much Hawk would gush over him. He was so hype when we brought him over from Seattle.

Wasn't me married to Ozzie's niece - or something?
 

idseer

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LOL - well I'm 68.

Landis and Berry both played when no one had a good BA - batters struggled to get to 300 to win the batting title. Both would have had DWARs (whatever that is) that saved 20 runs a year.

Lamar Hoyt had one spectular year and another fairly good one, but had pain pill issues - If I remember correctly.

Freddy Garcia - came to the Sox on the downside of his career - Wilbur Wood should be his replacement. Wilbur won a couple of double headers -and had possibly the best knuckle ball in baseball history.

After further stat investigation, I find I’ll stick with my choices. In all cases (war dwar, avg. etc) lemon, Johnson and eaton blow landis away. Berry was the worst in war. Landis was below average as a hitter (compared to league averages) so your suggestion he was better because averages were worse then doesn’t hold water imo. Berry was worse yet. I will agree that my weakest choice was rudy law because he did have a lower war and dwar than landis (but not by much) but imo was a more dynamic player for instance law stole 171 bases in 4 years with the sox whereas landis stole 121 in 8 years. law also hit higher than league averages during his time there. It is very close tho.

As to their dwar … of the 7 players being discussed here (my 5 and landis and berry) landis and berry come in tied for 4th place in dwar so I think you’ve over-estimated their defense a bit.


Lamarr hoyt was 74-49 (.602) for the sox regardless of how you break it up. Garcia was 55-31 (.640). Not sure why you think Garcia was on his downside. His win % with the sox was better than his prior % with seattle (.603). Wood was .524 with the sox and much of that was as a reliever. I understand that he was with the team longer but that’s not how I’m looking at this. I’m looking percentage-wise and at least 3 years with the team. Wood was good and I considered him but he wasn’t better than freddy. At least not imo.

oh and ... i'm 75.
 

idseer

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You could argue quite a few over Freddy...I can't go that far back for Wood as I'm only 41, but I can think of a more than a few just off the top of my head that should be in over him...

Sale (lulz this was obv coming from me), Garland, Alvarez, Fernandez.
i considered all those pitchers. i knew you might have a problem with my leaving sale off but his numbers just didn't add up imo. perhaps had he not been out with various ailments in his 7 years with the team i'd have gone with him. he was very close.
 

Jiddy

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i considered all those pitchers. i knew you might have a problem with my leaving sale off but his numbers just didn't add up imo. perhaps had he not been out with various ailments in his 7 years with the team i'd have gone with him. he was very close.

Sale put over 1000 innings in the 5 seasons 2012-2016.

Freddy was not more dependable than that. And the numbers speak for themselves.

The other 3 I could see an argument, but I'd probably still lean the slightly toward each of them. Freddy nailed it for a couple seasons for us in 05/06 and was serviceable in 2010...Outside of that, it's hard to make an argument that he's top 5 all time pitcher for the franchise.

Are we considering just time with the Sox? Cuz that's how I'm looking at it.
 

idseer

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Sale put over 1000 innings in the 5 seasons 2012-2016.

Freddy was not more dependable than that. And the numbers speak for themselves.

The other 3 I could see an argument, but I'd probably still lean the slightly toward each of them. Freddy nailed it for a couple seasons for us in 05/06 and was serviceable in 2010...Outside of that, it's hard to make an argument that he's top 5 all time pitcher for the franchise.

Are we considering just time with the Sox? Cuz that's how I'm looking at it.

yes .... just time with the sox. i won't argue with your choice. a good case can be made for sale.
 

Mingo

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richig07

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Why the HELL isn't Grandal #1 catcher!!!!?????



;) :lol:



Swap in Sale for Freddy, get Crede in there and we're all good in my book.
 

Mingo

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My hats off to Idseer's list - I don't think a list from me would approach to how well he did this.
 

Lake Shore Drive

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I think Juan Pizarro deserves some love here, at least for honorable mentions. He pitched 6 years for the Sox, altho the last two of them were plagued with injuries. Still his numbers during his Sox tenure were fairly impressive:

75-47, 3.05 ERA, 2 AS appearances, including his peak year in '64 when he went 19-9 with a 2.54 ERA. The Sox averaged 90 wins during his tenure there.
 

idseer

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I think Juan Pizarro deserves some love here, at least for honorable mentions. He pitched 6 years for the Sox, altho the last two of them were plagued with injuries. Still his numbers during his Sox tenure were fairly impressive:

75-47, 3.05 ERA, 2 AS appearances, including his peak year in '64 when he went 19-9 with a 2.54 ERA. The Sox averaged 90 wins during his tenure there.

yes, he should be there too. i remember well that peters and pizarro tandem was one of the best (maybe THEE best) in baseball but had the misfortune of playing for teams that sucked! once peters had an era of 1.98 and finished 12-10.
there were others that also had this misfortune. hell, joel horlen finished UNDER .500 with a 3.11 lifetime era!

sox were noted for having great pitchers and yet the last original sox starter to enter the hall was red ruffing who finished his career in 1933 (i don't count gossage because as a sox starter he failed miserably).
 

Mingo

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I have a fond memory of watching Gary Peters - go to 1st base to play while a reliever came in to get a guy out - then Peters went back to the mound.
 
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