Is Lebron a Dynasty Unto Himself?

dtgold88 · Mar 31, 2020

TrustMeIamRight said:
You traded kids. They just turned 22. I don't count Hart, as I see him as more of a role player.
If someone told you Lonzo Ball would shoot almost 40% from 3 after his two years in LA -- would you have believed it? Or that Brandon Ingram would be in the top 15 in scoring? They are 22 years old.
You are judging them as if you expect every 19, 20, 21 year old to walk into the NBA playing against grown men and just dominate.
The very short term -- as in two more years -- it is a great deal for LA. In 2022, Lebron will be 38 year old. Age catches up to everyone. What does LA do in 2022? Sign Lebron into his 40's? They won't be trading for anyone, as they have no one to trade and no draft picks to trade with.

On that I agree....win a title it's worth it. don't and.....?

trojanfan12 · Mar 31, 2020

TrustMeIamRight said:
If someone told you Lonzo Ball would shoot almost 40% from 3 after his two years in LA -- would you have believed it? Or that Brandon Ingram would be in the top 15 in scoring? They are 22 years old.

Ball...no. I was hoping he'd get to about 33-35% from 3. His free throw shooting is still an abomination though, especially for a guard.

Ingram...yes. He had pretty well improved in every category, every season and was showing all star potential.

TrustMeIamRight said:
What does LA do in 2022? Sign Lebron into his 40's? They won't be trading for anyone, as they have no one to trade and no draft picks to trade with.

As far as what to do with Lebron. That remains to be seen.

If he gets to the end of this contract and is still playing at a high level and still wants to play, then you can bring him back.

If he retires, or he and/or the Lakers decide it's best for him to leave, they would still have AD and cap space to build with.

Either way, if he doesn't retire, I don't see Lebron ever signing anything more that a 2 year deal with player option after 1 for the rest of his career. It wouldn't make sense for him or a team.

msgkings322 · Mar 31, 2020

dtgold88 said:
On that I agree....win a title it's worth it. don't and.....?

Go big or go home. You always take the shot.

dtgold88 · Mar 31, 2020

msgkings322 said:
Go big or go home. You always take the shot.

Oh no doubt. Didn't really phrase that right. Just saying Ball/Ingram could be superstars and if LA wins a title it is still worth it...Had to try either way.

TrustMeIamRight · Mar 31, 2020

trojanfan12 said:
Actually, it should be less of a problem to get a top level FA.

While it is false to say that no top FA wanted to play with Lebron, it is also false to say that they all did.

Playing alongside Lebron is similar to playing along side Kobe. If your teams wins, most of the credit is going to go to them. But if your team loses, much of the blame is going to fall on you.

That's not Lebron's fault and it wasn't Kobe's. It's the media and fans that set the narrative. But it does mean that a player must be willing to accept that and not all of them are.

With AD, that's not likely to be an issue.

There is definitely a certain amount of "hope" involved. As you said, they have to hope that they can sign the right guys when Lebron leaves.

However, there is also "hope" involved no matter what. If you have a lot of draft picks, you hope you get guys who will become very good to great players. If you have a lot of young guys like the Lakers did, you hope they can develop into very good to great players.

Having a superstar player, especially a young one like AD, always means there is potential for a bright future.

In the Lakers case, for example, if for some reason they were unable to sign another top level FA, they could look at trading AD for a bunch of assets to start a rebuild.

But by the time you do potentially trade Davis -- it'd be for a fraction of what you traded away.

That is why it is such a big deal LA couldn't fill the max slot this year. Next year's FA class is terrible. Andre Drummond is considered one of the best options :lol:

I think the window for LA is roughly 2 more years. When Lebron inevitably starts to slow down or walks away -- it is going to be rough sledding for LA, as nothing is guaranteed in FA (as the Knicks and Lakers found out this year)

And I agree they could trade AD, but the return would be pennies on the dollar for what they gave up.

trojanfan12 · Mar 31, 2020

TrustMeIamRight said:
But by the time you do potentially trade Davis -- it'd be for a fraction of what you traded away.

Uh, not really. If they are trading AD, that means they have committed to a rebuild.

They would likely be getting some combination of draft picks (both present and future) and players, preferably young ones that can be developed. Those are assets that can be used multiple ways to rebuild the team.

TrustMeIamRight said:
That is why it is such a big deal LA couldn't fill the max slot this year. Next year's FA class is terrible. Andre Drummond is considered one of the best options

Why would the Lakers be looking for a top level FA this next off-season? At most, they need a 3rd scorer and that's only if Kuzma doesn't develop into that player.

He started slow, but was doing much better before this virus shit. So the jury is still out. If Kuzma develops into that player, they might look to add a "specialist" of some kind (like a 3 point shooter), but they won't be looking for a difference maker type player.

TrustMeIamRight · Mar 31, 2020

msgkings322 said:
Are you saying they should not have made the trade?

It isn't that I don't think they shouldn't have made the trade. I think they gave up way too much in the trade.

I understand why they did it, but they must be praying day and night this corona shit passes, as next year will be WAY tougher to even make it out of the West, let alone win a title. And there is nothing much for them to sign to fill a max spot.

msgkings322 · Mar 31, 2020

TrustMeIamRight said:
It isn't that I don't think they shouldn't have made the trade. I think they gave up way too much in the trade.

I understand why they did it, but they must be praying day and night this corona shit passes, as next year will be WAY tougher to even make it out of the West, let alone win a title. And there is nothing much for them to sign to fill a max spot.

It doesn't get done if they don't give up that much

TrustMeIamRight · Mar 31, 2020

trojanfan12 said:
Uh, not really. If they are trading AD, that means they have committed to a rebuild.

They would likely be getting some combination of draft picks (both present and future) and players, preferably young ones that can be developed. Those are assets that can be used multiple ways to rebuild the team.

Why would the Lakers be looking for a top level FA this next off-season? At most, they need a 3rd scorer and that's only if Kuzma doesn't develop into that player.

He started slow, but was doing much better before this virus shit. So the jury is still out. If Kuzma develops into that player, they might look to add a "specialist" of some kind (like a 3 point shooter), but they won't be looking for a difference maker type player.

There is no chance LA gets anything close to what they gave up. At the point they deal him, he will no longer be younger -- he will be in his 30's.

And the Lakers want to try and maximize their chance to win a title, so of course they want to find another max player to pair up with Davis and Lebron. Preferably a guard who can guard the perimeter too, as they have to deal with Leonard and George, Houston heaving up 3's like it is their job and next year, once GSW has Curry, Thompson, Green, Wiggins and whoever they draft with the #1 overall pick.
Hell -- I cant wait to see what NO will look like with a full year of Zion, with Ingram, Ball, Holiday, Reddick, etc. I bet they are a top 5 team in the West.

The West is going to be brutal.

TrustMeIamRight · Mar 31, 2020

msgkings322 said:
It doesn't get done if they don't give up that much

New Orleans was already sitting him out. He was getting dealt regardless. New Orleans knew LA was desperate and they made them pay for that desperation.

Only two teams had the young players to make the deal. Ainge hates giving up any assets, so personally, I think NO's GM is a genius for getting what he did from LA for a player who literally said he wouldn't sign with them in a year anyway.

trojanfan12 · Mar 31, 2020

TrustMeIamRight said:
There is no chance LA gets anything close to what they gave up. At the point they deal him, he will no longer be younger -- he will be in his 30's.

He just turned 27. So, at that point, he'd be 30-31 and still in his prime.

Additionally, all of those players that the Lakers gave up were players they drafted. That means, at one point, they were unused draft picks.

So yes, depending on what they did with them, the Lakers could get as much or more than they gave up.

They could also end up with less if they don't use them properly.

But again, if they are trading AD, they will have committed to a full rebuild. So the return they got back wouldn't be known for 2-5 years.

Example, when they traded Shaq, they didn't get much back compared to who they gave up and they couldn't even tank to get a high draft pick because they still had Kobe.

They were able to use some of those assets to get Andrew Bynum who was an all star caliber player before his knees fell off and Pau Gasol, which ended up getting them 3 more finals trips and 2 more titles.

trojanfan12 · Mar 31, 2020

TrustMeIamRight said:
Hell -- I cant wait to see what NO will look like with a full year of Zion, with Ingram, Ball, Holiday, Reddick, etc. I bet they are a top 5 team in the West.

The Pels are already one of the most fun teams to watch in the entire league.

If they all keep developing, stay healthy and stay together, they are going to be really scary for quite awhile.

I don't know if they'll win any titles, but I'll bet they'll have a lot to say about who does.

tlance · Mar 31, 2020

TrustMeIamRight said:
There is no chance LA gets anything close to what they gave up. At the point they deal him, he will no longer be younger -- he will be in his 30's.

And the Lakers want to try and maximize their chance to win a title, so of course they want to find another max player to pair up with Davis and Lebron. Preferably a guard who can guard the perimeter too, as they have to deal with Leonard and George, Houston heaving up 3's like it is their job and next year, once GSW has Curry, Thompson, Green, Wiggins and whoever they draft with the #1 overall pick.
Hell -- I cant wait to see what NO will look like with a full year of Zion, with Ingram, Ball, Holiday, Reddick, etc. I bet they are a top 5 team in the West.

The West is going to be brutal.

Here is what you fail to comprehend.

What the Lakers gave up, was 2 players with decent potential. Both broke out to a certain extent this season. Neither was a great fit next to LeBron and neither was likely to play as well as they did this year in LA.

Also, both players had significantly less value at the time of the deal than they do today. Because both significantly outpaced expectations in terms of production.

Yet still, both players have significant flaws in their games. In the NBA superstars are exponentially more valuable than fringe all star types, which maybe Ingram can be. Like I said before, neither player is on that superstar type trajectory, and yes, you can almost always tell after 3 or 4 seasons in the league when a player has a chance to achieve that level of play.

Again, Laker future with Ball and Ingram was mediocre.

trojanfan12 · Mar 31, 2020

tlance said:
Yet still, both players have significant flaws in their games. In the NBA superstars are exponentially more valuable than fringe all star types, which maybe Ingram can be. Like I said before, neither player is on that superstar type trajectory, and yes, you can almost always tell after 3 or 4 seasons in the league when a player has a chance to achieve that level of play.

Again, Laker future with Ball and Ingram was mediocre.

And, as I believe you mentioned earlier, the Lakers would end up having to pay them or move them.

If they pay them, they would risk not having the cap space to sign a difference maker. So they would likely end up having to give up at least a couple of them to land one anyway.

They could have developed into a nice, solid team. Maybe a consistent 4-5 seed in the West.

But they weren't going to develop into the Steph, Klay, Dray Warriors or even the KD, Westbrook, Beard Thunder.

tlance · Mar 31, 2020

trojanfan12 said:
The Pels are already one of the most fun teams to watch in the entire league.

If they all keep developing, stay healthy and stay together, they are going to be really scary for quite awhile.

I don't know if they'll win any titles, but I'll bet they'll have a lot to say about who does.

The key there is that Holiday and Zion are the 2 best players.

And Ball and Ingram fit a lot better in NO. Especially Ball.

michaeljordan_fan · Mar 31, 2020

If Lebron is a dynasty, then so were the 90s Bills. (Hint: Neither of them are)

trojanfan12 · Mar 31, 2020

tlance said:
The key there is that Holiday and Zion are the 2 best players.

And Ball and Ingram fit a lot better in NO. Especially Ball.

Yep. I think Ingram will probably surpass Holiday eventually. But he's not there yet.

And yeah, you know a guy who loves to pass the ball as much as Lonzo does is absolutely loving having Zion, Holiday and Ingram to pass the ball to.

All of them can play at the tempo that fits Ball's game. So much fun to watch.

A couple of family members may disown me, but the Pels are quickly catching up to the Suns as my 2nd favorite NBA team. lol

lebron23james · Mar 31, 2020

If NO wins a championship and LA doesn't would that upset you?

thunderc · Apr 1, 2020

Anyone wanting to see a true one person dynasty set your recorders for mid April.

TrustMeIamRight · Apr 1, 2020

tlance said:
Here is what you fail to comprehend.

What the Lakers gave up, was 2 players with decent potential. Both broke out to a certain extent this season. Neither was a great fit next to LeBron and neither was likely to play as well as they did this year in LA.

Also, both players had significantly less value at the time of the deal than they do today. Because both significantly outpaced expectations in terms of production.

Yet still, both players have significant flaws in their games. In the NBA superstars are exponentially more valuable than fringe all star types, which maybe Ingram can be. Like I said before, neither player is on that superstar type trajectory, and yes, you can almost always tell after 3 or 4 seasons in the league when a player has a chance to achieve that level of play.

Again, Laker future with Ball and Ingram was mediocre.

so you saw Giannis being an MVP talent after year 3? You saw James Harden being an MVP talent after year 3? You saw Bradley Beal being a 30 ppg guy after year 3? You saw Damian Lilliard being a 30 ppg guy who can carry a team on his back after year 3? Did you see Steph Curry being a MVP talent? Or Thompson or Green? Should I go on?

When you are drafting kids at 19, 20 years old -- many are still growing into their bodies and it will take more than a few years to add the strength, maturity and skills necessary to become stars.

Personally, I cannot stand Lonzo Ball. Everything about the kid annoys me. So if I were a Lakers fan -- I'd be happy just to get rid of him and his dad. I was shocked when I saw him play with NO. He looked like a completely different player with a complete different shooting stroke. I still wanted to smack the smug look off his face, but he looked like the player they thought he'd be when he was drafted.

Is Lebron a Dynasty Unto Himself?

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