Jay Gruden fired

cincygrad · Oct 11, 2019

Cincyfan78 said:
They need to look hard at trading AJ and Atkins, and hell maybe even Bernard.

If they can get 1st rounds for Atkins and AJ, plus probably a 3rd/4th thrown in, and something for Bernard, that opens up a lot of cap space and adds to their draft picks. Hell, I'd look to trade Dre K for a late round pick, too. There's so much that needs to be done. Keeping guys who won't factor into the next rebuild doesn't make sense.

As for drafting a QB, even before they look at QB, they have got to figure out the OL and rebuild the DL first. The way the NFL is played, good teams protect the QB, and get after the QB.

I agree to an extent.... If you're picking in the top 3 and your qb is there, you have to take him. If that's the case, I'd try to spend some money on a RT, hope Williams is up to speed, and then roll with some of the other parts you have on staff while continuing to build.

You're right that there is just so much to be done.... Not counting the Dolphins and maybe the Redskins, this is likely one of the worst rosters in the league. You know who isn't going to lose his job because of it? Duke Tobin... That's who.

CrashDavisSports · Oct 11, 2019

Cincyfan78 said:
They need to look hard at trading AJ and Atkins, and hell maybe even Bernard.

If they can get 1st rounds for Atkins and AJ, plus probably a 3rd/4th thrown in, and something for Bernard, that opens up a lot of cap space and adds to their draft picks. Hell, I'd look to trade Dre K for a late round pick, too. There's so much that needs to be done. Keeping guys who won't factor into the next rebuild doesn't make sense.

As for drafting a QB, even before they look at QB, they have got to figure out the OL and rebuild the DL first. The way the NFL is played, good teams protect the QB, and get after the QB.

Well, I think AJ Green along with Boyd on the outside play a huge factor into a rebuild, especially if we are moving to a new QB. You want that QB as comfortable as possible coming in. We are not going to move guys that still make the team tons in merchandising, ticket sales and improve product on the field.

AJ will sign a new contract here. Teams needing an AJ Green, the Patriots and 49ers are talking about 2nd round picks with maybe a role player for AJ. To me the only benefit of doing this crappy of a trade, is to relieve ourselves of salary (they are talking about the Bengals eating most of the salary too). So they want to give us a bottom of the second round draft pick, some scrub filler and want us to foot most of the AJ Green salary bill. We have a cap floor. If we jettison Dalton and a couple other players, we have plenty of cap space left to add guys.

AJ will re-up here for another 4 years I bet.

Atkins, will probably start going down hill quicker as he gets older, and we are probably stuck with him, but he is certainly a guy who you are okay with being stuck with.

I am all for trading Kirkpatrick though, get him out of here, jettison Dalton, draft your QB of the future with your first round pick.

Losing some of that salary, we could rebuild that oline a bit.

Jonah Williams at LT. Draft a RT with our 2nd round pick. Find a good, solid LG in FA. Figure out who our center is Price or Hopkins, and I am good with John Miller at RT.

Need to find 2 above average LB's in free agency without breaking the bank. Lawson still being the 3rd LB who basically rushes the QB.

Waiting for Dennard to make it back. Maybe resign him next year if he shows he still has it the second half of this season. Jackson is a priority.

Cincyfan78 · Oct 12, 2019

CrashDavisSports said:
Well, I think AJ Green along with Boyd on the outside play a huge factor into a rebuild, especially if we are moving to a new QB. You want that QB as comfortable as possible coming in. We are not going to move guys that still make the team tons in merchandising, ticket sales and improve product on the field.

AJ will sign a new contract here. Teams needing an AJ Green, the Patriots and 49ers are talking about 2nd round picks with maybe a role player for AJ. To me the only benefit of doing this crappy of a trade, is to relieve ourselves of salary (they are talking about the Bengals eating most of the salary too). So they want to give us a bottom of the second round draft pick, some scrub filler and want us to foot most of the AJ Green salary bill. We have a cap floor. If we jettison Dalton and a couple other players, we have plenty of cap space left to add guys.

AJ will re-up here for another 4 years I bet.

Atkins, will probably start going down hill quicker as he gets older, and we are probably stuck with him, but he is certainly a guy who you are okay with being stuck with.

I am all for trading Kirkpatrick though, get him out of here, jettison Dalton, draft your QB of the future with your first round pick.

Losing some of that salary, we could rebuild that oline a bit.

Jonah Williams at LT. Draft a RT with our 2nd round pick. Find a good, solid LG in FA. Figure out who our center is Price or Hopkins, and I am good with John Miller at RT.

Need to find 2 above average LB's in free agency without breaking the bank. Lawson still being the 3rd LB who basically rushes the QB.

Waiting for Dennard to make it back. Maybe resign him next year if he shows he still has it the second half of this season. Jackson is a priority.

If your rebuild involves a 31 yr old WR with a recent injury history, your rebuild is going to fail. Point blank.

cincygrad · Oct 12, 2019

Cincyfan78 said:
If your rebuild involves a 31 yr old WR with a recent injury history, your rebuild is going to fail. Point blank.

This.

I love AJ. I think he could help a team this year and next year (assuming he can stay healthy). By the time he hits 33, I assume he will be done. That's how old he will be by the time this team has a prayer of rebuilding the roster (and that's assuming they build it well).

cincygrad · Oct 13, 2019

The 'future hall of famer' Geno Atkins didn't even show up on today's stat sheet. I haven't seen much live action, but whenever I've watched I haven't noticed him at all. Is he done?

CrashDavisSports · Oct 14, 2019

Cincyfan78 said:
If your rebuild involves a 31 yr old WR with a recent injury history, your rebuild is going to fail. Point blank.

I disagree, but that is okay.

CrashDavisSports · Oct 14, 2019

cincygrad said:
The 'future hall of famer' Geno Atkins didn't even show up on today's stat sheet. I haven't seen much live action, but whenever I've watched I haven't noticed him at all. Is he done?

Geno might be done. He is supposed to be the difference maker in the middle and we have had no pressure on QB's this year outside Seattle.

Cincyfan78 · Oct 14, 2019

CrashDavisSports said:
I disagree, but that is okay.

For a team that is, at the very lest, 2 years away from competing - there are so many things you could do with the picks/cap space that trading AJ would bring. Every bit helps speed up the process to getting this team back to competing during the regular season, and into the playoffs.

I love AJ - under the right circumstances, I would have ZERO issue in wanting to re-sign him. However, if you have to give him a decent sized contract, and sign up for 4 more years, and you're not really going to be ready to compete for at least 2 more years, then you are looking at paying a 33/34 year old WR, who has had several injuries over the past few years taking up cap space and little to no return value at that time for trading him. You already have Boyd to help fill that veteran gap with younger WR. Tate is showing he can be a go-to guy. I still don't think Erickson gets enough run, but that is a rant for a different post. Having AJ finish out the next 3-4 years here is a luxury that the Bengals simply cannot afford IF they want to get back to competing as soon as they can.

However, it's a moot point, because Brown will sign him, and the beat marches on in Bengaldom.

CrashDavisSports · Oct 14, 2019

Cincyfan78 said:
For a team that is, at the very lest, 2 years away from competing - there are so many things you could do with the picks/cap space that trading AJ would bring. Every bit helps speed up the process to getting this team back to competing during the regular season, and into the playoffs.

I love AJ - under the right circumstances, I would have ZERO issue in wanting to re-sign him. However, if you have to give him a decent sized contract, and sign up for 4 more years, and you're not really going to be ready to compete for at least 2 more years, then you are looking at paying a 33/34 year old WR, who has had several injuries over the past few years taking up cap space and little to no return value at that time for trading him. You already have Boyd to help fill that veteran gap with younger WR. Tate is showing he can be a go-to guy. I still don't think Erickson gets enough run, but that is a rant for a different post. Having AJ finish out the next 3-4 years here is a luxury that the Bengals simply cannot afford IF they want to get back to competing as soon as they can.

However, it's a moot point, because Brown will sign him, and the beat marches on in Bengaldom.

Here is the thing, you have to pay someone, because there is a cap floor as well. You can't just trade off and dismantle all your expensive players, because you have to maintain a cap spending floor. If Dalton is gone, you get rid of guys that are worthless for their money (Kirkpatrick, Hart, Glenn, Brown, Atkins may be there now, etc etc.) If you are going to keep an expensive contract that could still pay dividends in a rebuild, Green is the guy. No better way to set your rookie QB up for success than to surround him with an AJ Green, Tyler Boyd and I am starting to think an Auden Tate with Joe Mixon. Rebuild that online with Williams being your LT of the future. Spend all that released money / players on that oline and LB group. If you don't have to worry about your offensive skill positions, it will make it easier to rebuild certain areas of the team.

We need a rebuild, but I don't think it is a total gut. I think it is oline, LB group and a new franchise QB to build on. It would be in our interest to see what Finley has the rest of this season right now.

Cincyfan78 · Oct 15, 2019

CrashDavisSports said:
Here is the thing, you have to pay someone, because there is a cap floor as well. You can't just trade off and dismantle all your expensive players, because you have to maintain a cap spending floor. If Dalton is gone, you get rid of guys that are worthless for their money (Kirkpatrick, Hart, Glenn, Brown, Atkins may be there now, etc etc.) If you are going to keep an expensive contract that could still pay dividends in a rebuild, Green is the guy. No better way to set your rookie QB up for success than to surround him with an AJ Green, Tyler Boyd and I am starting to think an Auden Tate with Joe Mixon. Rebuild that online with Williams being your LT of the future. Spend all that released money / players on that oline and LB group. If you don't have to worry about your offensive skill positions, it will make it easier to rebuild certain areas of the team.

We need a rebuild, but I don't think it is a total gut. I think it is oline, LB group and a new franchise QB to build on. It would be in our interest to see what Finley has the rest of this season right now.

I'd rather pay guys who are going to be around in 3-4 years still able to help. I'd throw money at the 2 best OL and DL out there. This team needs at least 2 LB's. Team needs at least 2 CB's. Team could still use a 3rd WR and a true pass catching TE. Might have to overpay a bit to get them here. Solves the cap issue, plus allows guys like Tate and Boyd to continue to be "the guys".

I think the line bolded in your statement is going to be the issue in our discussion - This team IS a total gut. There are 2, maybe 3, guys on the OL worth keeping. Dalton is going to go. Mixon and Bernard are here, that's fine. There are probably 2-3 DL worth keeping. Dunlap and Atkins are up there in playing age, even if you keep them, you need to be ready to replace them sooner than later. There are no LB's worth keeping. 1 CB worth keeping, maybe 2. I guess the Safeties are ok? I mean, when you look around this team, not only is there a stark lack of talent at the starting positions, there is zero depth. This team needs all the cap space and draft picks it can get to replenish. Money can be spent. That is easy enough, but if anyone thinks that this team is just a piece here or there away from competing...…I don't know what to say except - They're wrong.

cincygrad · Oct 15, 2019

It's going to be hilarious when the Bengals don't trade AJ and then he signs somewhere else. 5th round comp pick baby!!!

cincygrad · Oct 15, 2019

Cincyfan nails it.... This is a total rebuild. Let's do a little exercise - Name 10 Bengal players that are slightly above average or better at their position. I'll start

Joe Mixon - I'm just guessing that he would be good with a real line.
Tyler Boyd - As a slot receiver, he is above average and might be great at the position with a real qb.
Sam Hubbard - Not exactly proven, but he looks like he'll have a nice career.
William Jackson - I guess.
Clark Harris - He's a good long snapper.
Jesse Bates - Everyone tells me he's good.
Fat Randy - He tends to make a lot of unimportant kicks and his very few kickoffs don't piss me off.

I could only come up with 7.... And one of them was the long snapper. Who am I missing?

cincygrad · Oct 15, 2019

Now lets name players that are overpaid or severely bad at their position.

The bums at LT.
Billy Price
Bobby Hart
Dre
Preston Brown
Nick Vigil

And, finally, who is elite at their position?

Maybe AJ if he ever plays again.

Cincyfan78 · Oct 15, 2019

cincygrad said:
Cincyfan nails it.... This is a total rebuild. Let's do a little exercise - Name 10 Bengal players that are slightly above average or better at their position. I'll start

Joe Mixon - I'm just guessing that he would be good with a real line.
Tyler Boyd - As a slot receiver, he is above average and might be great at the position with a real qb.
Sam Hubbard - Not exactly proven, but he looks like he'll have a nice career.
William Jackson - I guess.
Clark Harris - He's a good long snapper.
Jesse Bates - Everyone tells me he's good.
Fat Randy - He tends to make a lot of unimportant kicks and his very few kickoffs don't piss me off.

I could only come up with 7.... And one of them was the long snapper. Who am I missing?

I think you can put Carl Lawson there as well as Dunlap, but Dunlap has been around a long time, and much like Atkins - if you are looking at 2 years before making another playoff push, he isn't a part of the future.

Cincyfan78 · Oct 15, 2019

I think at OL - you have Williams coming back from Injury, Jordan and Price (at least he would provide some depth and is still young to work with) and apparently what's his name at C has played decently per PFF, I believe I saw. So, you have some pieces to work with, but more are needed. Starters at RG, RT, and potentially still at LT - and depth.

Boyd, Tate, Erickson and you need at least 2 more WR's, and potentially another outside #1 type threat.

Need a true pass-catching TE to hit the middle of the defense.

Need a QB.

Need 2 DT's, another DE, 3 LB's, at least 3 secondary guys.

This team has a lot of holes to fill. Trading guys who can get some value in return now, helps to speed up that process. The lack of explosiveness and overall speed is evident on both offense and defense. This team is built for an 80's style NFL game that does not exist anymore.

cincygrad · Oct 15, 2019

Cincyfan78 said:
This team has a lot of holes to fill. Trading guys who can get some value in return now, helps to speed up that process. The lack of explosiveness and overall speed is evident on both offense and defense. This team is built for an 80's style NFL game that does not exist anymore.

I wonder how much of this we put on Tobin or if Marvin is ultimately responsible for it. Marvin had his type of player - He liked tall receivers, tall defensive backs, and beefy offensive lines. Tobin was selecting for Marvin's schemes so it makes sense that they chose certain players.

I suppose we need to see another draft or two with Taylor and Tobin working together to know how much to blame Tobin, but looking at this team's crummy depth right now, it's at least fair to ask why Tobin should keep his job next year.

CrashDavisSports · Oct 15, 2019

cincygrad said:
I wonder how much of this we put on Tobin or if Marvin is ultimately responsible for it. Marvin had his type of player - He liked tall receivers, tall defensive backs, and beefy offensive lines. Tobin was selecting for Marvin's schemes so it makes sense that they chose certain players.

I suppose we need to see another draft or two with Taylor and Tobin working together to know how much to blame Tobin, but looking at this team's crummy depth right now, it's at least fair to ask why Tobin should keep his job next year.

You have guys like Troy Blackburn signing Bobby Hart to $21 million dollar contracts. Mike Brown that wants to take in the original top talent at bargain basement pricing because they got in trouble. You have Tobin working within the budget and desire of the Browns along with their loyalty to certain players, and then you have two different coaches with two different styles of coaching, brand new guys that have never been full year coordinators before.

I imagine the job Tobin has trying to piece together a winning roster is damn near impossible. Doesn't mean he should keep his job necessarily, but with that infrastructure, you think the next guy will be any better?

cincygrad · Oct 15, 2019

CrashDavisSports said:
I imagine the job Tobin has trying to piece together a winning roster is damn near impossible. Doesn't mean he should keep his job necessarily, but with that infrastructure, you think the next guy will be any better?

If that's your perspective, why replace Marvin? Why ever fire anyone?

Don't get me wrong - You have a point. The team cannot have sustained success with poor ownership....Same issue in Washington.

jgreene95 · Oct 16, 2019

Cincyfan78 said:
The way the NFL is played, good teams protect the QB, and get after the QB.

LOL Mike Brown plays the NFL a different way. To lose.

CrashDavisSports · Oct 16, 2019

cincygrad said:
If that's your perspective, why replace Marvin? Why ever fire anyone?

Don't get me wrong - You have a point. The team cannot have sustained success with poor ownership....Same issue in Washington.

I just have not come to conclusion this is Tobin's fault.

Jay Gruden fired

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