Carter Garnering Interest

Not really surprising with how the team has played, almost everyone should be available. The actual salary is what makes Carter attractive even with the age, he is only owed $7 million in actual cash ($3 million and then $2 million each of the last 2 years on his 11 years/$58 million deal).

Interesting to see Kovalchuk's name on there after he just signed here but at this point it's obvious this roster will not be making any legitimate noise soon - best to move whatever assets are available and go into retool/rebuild depending on who stays and what comes back.

Carter drawing much attention — The Fourth Period

We are going to have a few seasons of kopistar, dd and brown...they will be tough to move....surrounded by some other guys

Bummer. But definitely not surprised. Wonder what could have been even last year if he didn't get his Achilles cut like it did. I got season seats with my pops a few years ago to just see these guys while we could, but knowing full well that they were in their twilight. It's all good. Always appreciate every guy that helped bring in 2 cups, and the only downside of winning is you wonder if we just had the best period in Kings history, and wonder if we'll get to see that again (But that's a "good" problem).

Maybe nothing happens, but you can see the writing on the proverbial wall for at least a few players. Blake is pretty much in "Save my job" mode, and will look to get good returns.

The endgame though, is that hopefully they can retool more than rebuild over 2-3 years, rather than rebuild over 4-6. A shorter window would mean the likes of Kopitar and Doughty (And maybe a select few others) would be part of that next potential group.

I know the term "Fanboy" used to get used a lot, but do you have certain players, despite struggles at times/whatever, that you would like to see remain a King their entire careers? I have a few for sure. Even is the team is struggling, just guys you're okay with regardless? Just curious.

I'm a definite fanboy of Kopitar. No matter what I hope he never plays for anyone else. Hard to not like the guy, he really doesn't have any weaknesses on the ice and off the ice is a very likeable guy too. Even if he is a bit overpaid. That one is probably an obvious one,

I read an article somewhere that Austin Matthews will be seeking somewhere in the $13-14M range, wow! Would make Kopitar's contract look pretty good if that is true.

Oh man is this a long one...

Stunner_At_Staples_Kings said:

Bummer. But definitely not surprised. Wonder what could have been even last year if he didn't get his Achilles cut like it did. I got season seats with my pops a few years ago to just see these guys while we could, but knowing full well that they were in their twilight. It's all good. Always appreciate every guy that helped bring in 2 cups, and the only downside of winning is you wonder if we just had the best period in Kings history, and wonder if we'll get to see that again (But that's a "good" problem)

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Carter getting hurt was a huge blow last season, the Kings were 5-1 when he went down with the injury in October. That was with him having only 3-4 assists if I recall, not even a goal, so any contribution from a full year with the way Kopitar/Brown played would have been huge.

Of course the flip side is hindsight is 20/20, and having only those 3-4 assists foreshadowed how much trouble the second line of Carter/Pearson/Toffoli would have all season long so maybe it's a moot point. All I do know is the way the Kopitar, Brown, Doughty and Quick played with Carter in the lineup they would have been a better team.

I too share the eternal gratefulness that these guys brought home two Cups, something I had accepted may never happen in my lifetime as a Kings fan (26 years at the time). I really felt for guys like Ox and other long timers (since inception or 40+ years) who watched this team come very close to the precipice only to spiral downward out of nowhere or be so bad that the last game of the regular season could not come fast enough.

While I agree this is the price you pay for success, especially in a cap era, I think there were some moves that were well intentioned but didn't pan out that fall squarely on Dumbo that exacerbated the situation to where we are now.

I was 100% on board with the Sekera trade because the Kings needed a 2D after the Voynov fiasco, and he had demonstrated for some time he was a legitimate 2D. It really sucked he got injured because we didn't get to see him in full flight in LA, but if you watched him throughout his career he was solid. He has gone thorugh some long term injuries in Edmonton since he left which I feel have derailed his career, but when the Kings acquired him he would have filled the Voynov void.

I was 90% on board with the Lucic trade because LA needed a guy like that, who could produce but also scare the crap out of anyone who touched the Kings' better players. The 10% I wasn't on board was how in the hell are they going to afford this guy, someone of significant salary is going to need to be moved.

If you look at it, Lucic actually worked out. He scored 20 goals, which was in line with his historic production and he kept his teammates safe - can't ask for more. He was one of the few trades that immediately worked out (production wise) for LA.

Going down memoray lane, immediate payoffs (doesn't just mean trade deadline acquisitions) were:

- Stoll/Greene (summer 2008) these 2 set the culture for that locker room and were huge in establishing a winning attitude in the locker room. Guys like Quick, Kopitar, Brown, Simmonds, etc. were talented but raw; they needed mentors and these two were some of the best. I remember watching Greene in the 2006 SCFs and he absolutely crushed people in front of Roloson and led by example. I remember the SJ series and he abused Thornton and Marleau at will, they were silent all series.

- Smyth (summer 2009) he fell into this category too but I don't think Dumbo expected him to want out and that surprised him. He had two fairly productive seasons in LA and I do commend him for putting his family first but I was annoyed when he requested the trade, it's the only blemish on Smyth's career to me because the whole point of him coming to LA from Colorado was because he wanted to win (he finished 2 years of the 5 year/$31.25 million deal in Colorado, 2 years here and the final year back in Edmonton). However, it's easy for me to judge him being on this side of the table and not knowing what was actually going on in the Smyth household.

- Richards (summer 2011) while Stoll and Greene laid the foundation for having a winning attitude, Richards cemented it. People can say what they want about this guy, and I understand their side of it, but that first Cup win simply does not happen without Richards even after acquiring Carter.

- Carter (TD 2012) meshed well immediately. In 16 RS games he clipped at .5625 PPG and then elevated his play, hitting .650 PPG in 20 PO games. He was a big part of the 2012 Cup win.

- Gaborik (TD 2014) was much like Carter but was consistent in both the RS (19 games, .842 PPG) and the POs (26 games, .846 PPG). Arguably the biggest contributor to the 2014 Cup win even though Williams won the Conn Smythe.

Guys like Regehr (2013) and Williams (2009) were deadline trades that worked later out but Halpern, Modin, Sturm, Gagne, Lecavalier, Schenn, Versteeg never paid off. Penner scored some big goals but didn't produce much throughout his LA career. Most Dumbo trades for immediate help flamed out as you can see, long term I think he made some good trades.

Back to Sekera and Lucic, Dumbo's game plan with both those guys were the same one he used on Gaborik - hope for a deep run or another Cup and try to convince them to stay for less than market value. Sekera signed for 6 years/$33 million ($5.5 million AAV) which is right in line for a 2D and Lucic signed for 7 years/$42 million ($6 million AAV) which was mind boggling and has blown up in the Oilers' face as we all predicted.

The Kings offered Sekera about $5 million if I recall, and with Lucic their final offer was 8 years/$34 million ($4.25 million AAV) which is well below what he would have gotten in free agency. Dumbo got Lucic cheap (Boston retained $2.75 million of his 2015-16 $6 million salary so LA's hit was only $3.25 million) and tried to sell the value of LA as a city as well as the team still being considered a Cup contender. I'm all for selling more value in a myriad of ways, but no player is going to leave that much money on the table in exchange for nice weather. Maybe a few hundred grand but I think Dumbo wanted Lucic as closer to the $3.25 million he got a year out of him for and was thinking maybe $4.5 million for Sekera. He rolled the dice on both and lost.

What's interesting here is that Sekera was still LA property when Dumbo traded for Lucic in June 2015, which essentially signaled Sekera was gone on July 1 (and he left) but in the trade for Lucic he moved Colin Miller, who was the closest NHL ready prospect LA had at the time.

If he was looking for a mobile puck moving defender, he had one in Miller already but apparently craved scoring up front more than filling the hole Voynov left.

Stunner_At_Staples_Kings said:

Maybe nothing happens, but you can see the writing on the proverbial wall for at least a few players. Blake is pretty much in "Save my job" mode, and will look to get good returns

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The way the team is, I can't see nothing NOT happening. It's evident this core has run its course, now the question is a) who is part of the future, b) who has value and c) who can be traded that helps them financially. Guys like Kopitar, Brown and Doughty are essentially untradeable because of contract regardless of play so it'll be valuable but low hanging fruit like Muzzin, Martinez, Carter, Toffoli, etc.

I don't think Blake is in "save my job" mode yet but will be by the start of next season. He inherited a mess and got the current team into the POs last season but they were too reliant on a group of players. Those guys are not producing this season and the true condition of the roster is being exposed.

Stunner_At_Staples_Kings said:

The endgame though, is that hopefully they can retool more than rebuild over 2-3 years, rather than rebuild over 4-6. A shorter window would mean the likes of Kopitar and Doughty (And maybe a select few others) would be part of that next potential group

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I agree, that should be the plan. The issue is financially, they have to clear some serious space to be competitive again but as in any deal, you have to have a willing partner. Of the newer guys I think Luff should get a serious look as a keeper, as well as Peterson and a few others (Kempe for example).

Apart from those guys, I don't consider anyone else untouchable on the roster (except the big money guys obviously).

Stunner_At_Staples_Kings said:

I know the term "Fanboy" used to get used a lot, but do you have certain players, despite struggles at times/whatever, that you would like to see remain a King their entire careers? I have a few for sure. Even is the team is struggling, just guys you're okay with regardless? Just curious.

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I'm definitely not a fan boy, I always pull for the sweater not the player. I have felt that way my whole life even though I do enjoy watching certain players and continue to do so even after they leave LA.

If I did have to pick however, it would be the lunch pail guys - Clifford for example - because lack of talent or not they have given their souls to the team and I appreciate loyalty like that. Guys like Brown, Quick, Doughty, etc. also did but they were also compensated for it significantly more.

Let me say there are some foundational expectations linked to this decision too however. Brown for example, I loved the guy from 2003-2009, wanted him gone 2009-2012 until he picked it up at the deadline through the Cup win, and then wanted him gone again after 2013 to current no matter what he has done.

Reason being is he is making huge bucks and on this contract, which is now about halfway done, he has really only earned a year of it. Maybe some of that lies at Dumbo's feet because he agreed to it, but with those types of bucks come huge expectations and Brown overall has not delivered.

I like what I see from luff, amadio and iafallo. Kempe shows fire and skill but takes stupid penelties... if that changes he might be great. Wagner has good speed but little else currently. I do like leipsic and hope he is a piece going forward. I am grateful to all the players that brought cup wins to la...but like those players my loyalty only goes so far...Kopitar 10m, dd 11m....those are not team friendly contracts. Sure I understand get what your worth but in cap era that hurts the team I want to win more then it helps. A few guys should get paid but even then be realistic about it. I think blake has done a good job bringing in cheap fairly effective players....the biggest problem is the direction of this team. There is no cohesiveness they are all doing something different...some going for big hits and bruising, some trying to run and gun, some trying to do it all and not doing any of it right....dd. they need clear direction from the top through the coach to the players of how they are going to play....no guessing

We all know several moves got to be coming by both Trade deadline, and again at draft (cannot believe last place team only as a 18% chance at #1 pick).

I am fully aware the Kings are dead last in goal scoring this year. Obviously need some more guys who can score. But honestly, I think a #2 RD has got to be a big priority too, as Puck touched on with the Sekera part of the thread.

Guys like Martinez, Fantenberg, even Phaneuf do well playing on their "off-side". But any of those options should be your 3rd pairing, not 2nd and 3rd pairing. I'm thinking one of LaDue, Walker, or Strand can hopefully grow into a solid #3 RD. But Kings definitely need to look for a #2 RD behind DD (since all reports indicate Voynov ain't welcome in L.A.)

On the left side D in the next 2-3 years, if just 2 of these guys can pan out, Kings should be good: Brickley, Clague, Anderson, Phillips. Plenty of LD to trade this year (or next).

I'm over the need to replace voynov. Yes it was the glaring hole when the kings were good. Really this group doesnt have as much skill as you would think. There is a reason the pp is always horrible, they never look like teams that have great skill and hockey sense. Their passes and shots have always been very predictable but they got by with making lots and lots of them. Wearing a team down into a mistake was their bread and butter. Now without that they dont have much. Even kovy has made passes to places a shooter should be but the kings are instead along the boards or on extended forchecks when they should be at the net.

Kings4OT said:

I like what I see from luff, amadio and iafallo. Kempe shows fire and skill but takes stupid penelties... if that changes he might be great.

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I think Kempe is a stud, if the Kings would stop screwing with where he plays. He is clearly talented and a physical player, but I agree the penalties hurt the team because of the timing. If he can get that under control and have a consistent spot in the lineup I think he is a legitimate T6 player.

Iaffalo is very intelligent and does a lot of the dirty work on that top line, I'm glad to see him finally getting on the board and being rewarded for his play. I'm not sure I consider him T6 material just yet, for a guy who played on the top lie for 75-80% of the season last year to only put up 9 goals as the LW1 isn't impressive considering who he was with, but he has shown a better knack this season and is on pace for 16G/24A which is better than the 9G/15A he put up last season. Being a rookie however he gets a pass and I like what I see, just want to see what his ceiling is.

Luff is intriguing, he was undrafted and signed as a FA by Dumbo. Have to give Futa crediit for finding him, need more of those hidden players because unfortunately the Kings' draft picks have not panned out for the most part from what I can see. You have to go back almost 7 years too find an impact player and that's Colin Miller who we mentioned above.

The lack of high picks from trades and success play a big part in that, which is why finding players in the later rounds is crucial. It's too early to tell with guys like Amadio (3rd/2014) or Wagner (4th/2015) and a guy like Brodzinski (5th/2013) hasn't played consistently enough and is now injured to see what he really is.

It's easy to tag 1st rounders as successes, which is why I don't give GMs too much credit - it's really hard to shit the bed with a 1st rounder which is why seeing what Edmonton has done with their plethora of them the last decade is shocking. My point: for a team like LA that is cash strapped and doesn't have a lot of quality picks, scouting and development is critical for success.

Kings4OT said:

Wagner has good speed but little else currently. I do like leipsic and hope he is a piece going forward.

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Keep jinxing everyone man, its paying off.

=)~~

Leipsic is a bulldog but I don't expect him to continue to play the way he has. He is a B6 player with some speed who may or may not be here next season. He is an RFA so the Kings will need to qualify him and the either keep him or trade him. If they do not have any takers they can not qualify him and he will become a UFA who can go to any team.

Kings4OT said:

I am grateful to all the players that brought cup wins to la...but like those players my loyalty only goes so far...Kopitar 10m, dd 11m....those are not team friendly contracts. Sure I understand get what your worth but in cap era that hurts the team I want to win more then it helps. A few guys should get paid but even then be realistic about it.

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The guys making $10+ million are elite players or were elite players when they signed those contracts. It does hurt that so much of the cap goes towards these kinds of players but they are usually franchise players and must be paid as such.

This is why you don't dish out 8 year/$47 million deals to guys like Brown or 7 year/$34.125 million deals to a guy like Gaborik. Loyalty is great but these are examples of flat out stupidity.

At least Blake flipped the useless $4.875 million in Gaborik into something somewhat useful into a third pairing defender in Phaneuf.

Kings4OT said:

I think blake has done a good job bringing in cheap fairly effective players....the biggest problem is the direction of this team. There is no cohesiveness they are all doing something different...some going for big hits and bruising, some trying to run and gun, some trying to do it all and not doing any of it right....dd. they need clear direction from the top through the coach to the players of how they are going to play....no guessing

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Spot on, I'm not sure if it's the players or Slick Willie or a combination of both.

Blake has done a decent job of finding cheap stop gaps but that will only go so far, he is going to have to make a major move (or few) to bring this franchise back to contender status. He has been very conservative so far, not moving picks and prospects and mainly going the collegiate UFA route (iaffalo, Brickley, Peterson, etc.) but will need to attack the overall roster and make legitimate improvements soon.

LoCal Kings said:

We all know several moves got to be coming by both Trade deadline, and again at draft (cannot believe last place team only as a 18% chance at #1 pick).

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You can thank the 1993 Ottawa Senators for that, they admitted and then denied they tanked to lock up the 1st overall pick in 1994. This led to the implementation of the Lottery Draft which remained in place until it was changed again 2 years ago.

I guess karma got them immediately by letting them draft Alexander Daigle. Be careful what you wish for, ya just might get it.

=)~~

LoCal Kings said:

I am fully aware the Kings are dead last in goal scoring this year. Obviously need some more guys who can score. But honestly, I think a #2 RD has got to be a big priority too, as Puck touched on with the Sekera part of the thread.

Guys like Martinez, Fantenberg, even Phaneuf do well playing on their "off-side". But any of those options should be your 3rd pairing, not 2nd and 3rd pairing. I'm thinking one of LaDue, Walker, or Strand can hopefully grow into a solid #3 RD. But Kings definitely need to look for a #2 RD behind DD (since all reports indicate Voynov ain't welcome in L.A.)

On the left side D in the next 2-3 years, if just 2 of these guys can pan out, Kings should be good: Brickley, Clague, Anderson, Phillips. Plenty of LD to trade this year (or next).

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I still fully believe the Kings need a 2D. I don't think it matters whether they are natural right or left defenders or LH or RH shots, if they are skilled and intelligent enough to be considered a 2D they can pretty much play on either side.

The lack of a legitimate 2D is what has put guys like Martinez, Fantenberg, etc. into playing their off side, and a guy like Muzzin can be lumped into this group too. The Kings have one legitimate T2 defender in Doughty, 2-4 hybrids in Muzzin and Martinez and then a bunch of 5-7/8 defenders in the rest. There is a significant drop off in talent between Doughty and Muzzin/Martinez and then an even larger skill gap between those two and the bottom defenders.

That second T2 defender is a huge hole because as basic as it sounds, all teams' offense - no matter what system they play - all starts on the back end and (IMO anyway) is a huge reason why the offense has sputtered since Voynov left and was not adequately replaced.

Kings4OT said:

I'm over the need to replace voynov. Yes it was the glaring hole when the kings were good. Really this group doesnt have as much skill as you would think.

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I think the team has some skill but after over a decade of defense first hockey the players who have been here don't really show it much. We don't even see Brown and his only trick - the backhand between the legs move to go around a defender - coming down the left wing with speed trying to go to the net. They are almost robotic in their movements, the creativity sucked out of them.

We are seeing some of that creativity with the new guys however like Wagner, Luff, Kempe, Leipsic, etc. These guys seem to want to make skill plays over the Kings mandated "North South" hockey and it's refreshing to see, maybe it'll break loose some of the veterans to try and be more creative to make something happen.

That said, a 2D should still be high on the list. The back end is where transition and offense begins from and Doughty can't be on the ice all 60 minutes. If not paired with Doughty (Voynov wasn't) that would also limit playing time for the other 4 defenders allowing more strategic deployment and placing guys where they should be instead of playing a ring higher because they have no alternative.

This trickle down effect is what made the Kings defense productive until 2014. If you look at the numbers, not only did production from the back end diminish after Voynov's departure (obviously) but so did production as a whole:

Substitute Voynov for 2D and the numbers speak for themselves:
- 2012-13 (last season with a legitimate 2D): 9th ranked offense
- 2013-14 (first season with 1D and a bunch of others): 25th ranked offense

Rinse and repeat for every year since 2014, you get the picture - a bottom third ranked team every year offensively. While I see your point, I am adamant that this team still needs that 2D and a lot of the problems they have will correct themselves if they do that. Dumbo tried with Sekera, but before and after him it was a bunch of tryouts to which everyone failed.

Kings4OT said:

There is a reason the pp is always horrible, they never look like teams that have great skill and hockey sense. Their passes and shots have always been very predictable but they got by with making lots and lots of them. Wearing a team down into a mistake was their bread and butter. Now without that they dont have much. Even kovy has made passes to places a shooter should be but the kings are instead along the boards or on extended forchecks when they should be at the net.

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I think this goes back to the first portion of my post, and I agree their offensive movement is so predictable it's not even funny. Their PP is telegraphed from a mile away, which is problematic in itself but when you aren't scoring at ES compounded with not scoring on the PP it's brutal to watch.

For example I still don't know why Slick Willie has not put Kovalchuk on the left dot just cocked and ready to go ala Ovechkin. You have some good passers in Kopitar, Doughty, Muzzin, etc. but instead he puts him on the point with Muzzin or not on the PP at all. Really dude? Total mismanagement and that's on the coach.

While I think the Kings are definitely not as skilled as other teams, they have the weapons to compete. The problem is the coach and the ingrained "Kings of old" offensive system in these guys.

I guess the reason why it does not bother me that we don't have a 2d Is that most of the problems I see are in the offensive zone while the cycle or set up...usually pathetic. Moving the Puck out has been decent but leads to not much....while a voynov would be sweet, that's not why thi team is missing the playoffs imo

Carter has heard his name being thrown about, his response:

Kings F Carter: 'I don’t want to go anywhere' - TSN.ca

Kings4OT said:

while a voynov would be sweet, that's not why thi team is missing the playoffs imo

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Completely agree, there are many factors why. It's just one more area the Kings need to address if they want to become a Cup team again.

Kings would need to be careful trading Carter if they did. Make sure its someplace he wouldnt mind going, if he retires kings are on the hook for 3.75m cap for 3 seasons...better get good return for that. Dude wants to stay and has nothing to prove, hes won cups, made money, ect. Wouldnt hurt to have him ride out the contract and guide our young players

Kings4OT said:

Kings would need to be careful trading Carter if they did. Make sure its someplace he wouldnt mind going, if he retires kings are on the hook for 3.75m cap for 3 seasons...better get good return for that. Dude wants to stay and has nothing to prove, hes won cups, made money, ect. Wouldnt hurt to have him ride out the contract and guide our young players

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The Cap Recapture Penalty, instilled on this CBA to prevent these backdiving contracts (although Carter's was grandfathered in). I'm not sure where the $3.75 million comes in, my numbers are different so I am probably missing something:

2018-19 8 $ 8,821,824 3 $ 2,940,608
2019-20 9 $ 6,549,552 2 $ 3,274,776
2020-21 10 $ 3,277,280 1 $ 3,277,280
2021-22 11 $ 5,008 0

It's not formatted corrected here but it's the season, what year of the contract he is in, the net cap benefit to that point, the years remaining on the deal and what the cap hit would be for that number of years depending on if/when he retired during this contract. As you can see, I have $3.275 million so I may need to recalculate it (I built my own calculator on Excel, if anyone wants it feel free to message me).

Regardless, not a good situation to be in for Carter or LA. And I agree, his actual cash isn't a lot and he would be a good mentor for the upcoming kids much like guys like Thornton, Handzus, et al were for this current core when they were coming up. Carter has done it all and I think can be shifted to a 3C or shutdown center at this stage of his career.

There is not a player on the roster that is untouchable. The Kings should take what they can get on any player right now.

lasportzphan said:

There is not a player on the roster that is untouchable. The Kings should take what they can get on any player right now.

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The problem is all the no trade clauses.

I think the idea was that Vilardi would start the year on RW, work in some time at C as he gained experience. Take over for Carter next season. But that sure ain't happening!

IF most everyone is available for trade, the Kings could actually open up a lot of Cap Space. Even if its just 2-3 out of Marty, Muzz, Toffoli, Carter, Quick. If its up to 4 out of those 5 guys, then Kings could actually take on a couple bad contracts (albeit not super long ones) in conjunction with good picks/prospects.

I know Hagelin and Thompson will likely get traded too. But out of the aforementioned group of core 5, how would you all rank trade value? (Obviously, depends on a willing trade partner's need)

1. Quick
2. Muzz
3. Carter
4-5. Tie between Toffoli and Marty

I am eternally grateful to all these guys for helping bring Cups to L.A. But if its just one that ends up staying, then I'd prefer it be Carter. Put him back on RW after they draft a C with high end 1st round pick in June.

Just to increase our chances at #1, I would love to trade a package of these guys to Col in exchange for the rights to Ottawa's 1st round pick. Maybe Blake can work a deal with his buddy Sakic.

davnlaguna said:

The problem is all the no trade clauses.

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The Kings have 6 although 2 of those were inherited (Phaneuf and Thompson).

Dumbo was not big on handing out NMC/NTCs which is also part of the reason why he paid guys a little more to compensate them for movement flexibility. Kopitar and Brown were the only 2 he handed out, Blake gave Doughty and Kovalchuk theirs and inherited those other two.

Most teams average between 5-7 so the 6 isn't real mind boggling. I for sure thought Chicago would have the most but Detroit actually has the most NTC/NMCs (10), the Hawks have 9.

I don't think the NMC/NTCs are the issue, it's who they belong to and the contract that accompanies them. Most are big dollar players and the same problem exists whether trade protection or not - large contracts.

The Kings have:

NTC
Brown - 8 team no trade list
Thompson - 10 team no trade list

NMC
Doughty
Kopitar
Phaneuf - 12 team no trade list
Kovalchuk - 7 team no trade list

Thompson is the lowest paid at $1.65 million, which wouldn't be much cap space anyway, but every other guy on that list makes more than Brown's $5.875 million.