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Harold Baines! ... H.O.F.!

StanMarsh51

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DJ

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He had just under 3k in hits and a lifetime BA of .289. That's excellent.

If he had just under 3k in hits and say a .260 BA than you could say it was due to longevity because .260 is pedestrian.

.289 isn't.
 

navamind

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war has some importance when compared even-handedly. i have a serious problem when they create war figures for players who played before it existed.

example:
......... years .. ab's .... hits ... 2b ... 3b .. hr's ... rbi's ... war
baines .. 22 .. 9908 ... 2866 . 488 . 49 .. 384 .. 1628 .. 40.7
kaline ... 22 ..10116 .. 3007 .. 498 . 75 .. 399 .. 1582 .. 78.3

this is just owar showing kaline has twice the war as baines. does anyone believe he was twice the player? kaline was no doubt better than baines but to suggest baines isn't even in the ballpark based on back-dated war is a fucking fruitcake (you reading this stan?)!

baines was money in the clutch. it's why he has more rbi's with crappier teammates even with 200 fewer ab's!

i'll say it again ... baines compares to kaline. kaline was a first rounder and baines certainly was not. that doesn't mean baines is not in the same ballpark.

Kaline spent a good chunk of his career in an era where offense was suppressed. Look at seasons like 1958, 1967 and 1966... he had under 90 RBIs, but finished in the top 10 in the AL. Kaline had eight seasons in the top 10 in RBIs, Baines had only two. And if we want to look at 162 game averages, Baines only averaged 3 more RBIs per 162 than Kaline did. Kaline also averaged 93 runs scored per season (Baines averaged 74). Kaline finished in the top 10 in runs scored eight times while Baines never finished in the top 10.

Major League Baseball Batting Year-by-Year Averages | Baseball-Reference.com

Also, Kaline batted .297/.376/.480 with a 134 OPS+. Baines batted .289/.356/.465 with a 121 OPS+. Kaline finished with a higher BA, OBP and SLG% despite playing in an era that was more unfavorable to hitters than Baines did. Kaline was easily a better hitter, and that's before we get into Baines being a DH and Kaline winning 10 Gold Gloves and rating as one of the best defensive outfielders of all-time (+153 rfield).

So yeah, they're really not comparable.
 

Mebert

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Baines is in the hall of fame.

^^^fact

"Is Baines hall of fame worthy?"

^^^Question you ask BEFORE said fact is established. After is just teeth gnashing...so yeah, you get what's coming.

It's like that f*cking guy that is like "Oh yeah, that was the worst Super Bowl team ever cuz (insert dumbass rant here)"..and better yet, makes sure to make his oh-so-convincing argument while surrounded by fans of the team.

Mother f*cker...They won the Super Bowl. (He's in the hall of fame) It's over. Are you in denial or something?

In denial? nobody has argued whether he is in or not. In the very post you commented I said "At the end of the day he is in and no one can take it from him."

Your analogy is wrong though, winning superbowl is an achievement where the results come on the field.

Baines in the Hall is more like Karl Malone winning an MVP in 96, Malone is not deserving in anyway, but voters gave it to him. You can't take away that he has the MVP, but we all know he did not deserve it over Jordan in 96.
 

Jiddy

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I guess...Stepping back from it all...There is a strong sense of satisfaction I am gathering that mediots are pissed because they never voted Baines in but actual baseball people were like "f*ck that...you guys are idiots" in a indirect way. So now they're making tons of articles to second-most gnash their teeth about it. (Firstmost is obviously for clicks because StanMarsh and navamind are making them rich all by themselves right now...much less the rest of the sports-starved parrots out there).

It's much more satisfying rolling with the Tony LaRussas, Joe Torres, Ozzie Smiths, Greg Madduxes out there than it is like you boys rollin' with Jay Mariotti and co. LOL. The company some of us keep.

God bless you Harold Baines.
 

Jiddy

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In denial? nobody has argued whether he is in or not. In the very post you commented I said "At the end of the day he is in and no one can take it from him."

Your analogy is wrong though, winning superbowl is an achievement where the results come on the field.

Baines in the Hall is more like Karl Malone winning an MVP in 96, Malone is not deserving in anyway, but voters gave it to him. You can't take away that he has the MVP, but we all know he did not deserve it over Jordan in 96.

More humor: I had totally forgot about that MVP deal from 96...and I lived it man. I remember being like "Man, that sucks...Jordan da MVP." And then, I didn't care. But I should consider moseying on over to the Jazz forum and letting them know that I'm happy for them...and that Karl Malone was a great player. And what he did on the court won him that MVP. Congratulations to them.

*ponders*

I mean...That or spend the next 2 hours dissecting basketball-reference.com so that I can strike down upon them with great vengeance and furious anger!!! Yes...Yes...Let's do that instead. Chicks dig the right on the internet forum hopper. *fist pump*
 

Mebert

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More humor: I had totally forgot about that MVP deal from 96...and I lived it man. I remember being like "Man, that sucks...Jordan da MVP." And then, I didn't care. But I should consider moseying on over to the Jazz forum and letting them know that I'm happy for them...and that Karl Malone was a great player. And what he did on the court won him that MVP. Congratulations to them.

*ponders*

I mean...That or spend the next 2 hours dissecting basketball-reference.com so that I can strike down upon them with great vengeance and furious anger!!! Yes...Yes...Let's do that instead. Chicks dig the right on the internet forum hopper. *fist pump*

I think you would find most Jazz fans agree that Jordan deserved it. Being a homer does not mean you have to ignore the obvious.
 

StanMarsh51

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How surprising you know nothing about Baines as an actual player....

Harold Baines was an amazing outfielder during his 20s. You did NOT run on him. His gun and accuracy were nuts. He had injury issues and couldn't run the same after about 7 or 8 years of baseball but he was such a damn good hitter that he stayed on for well over another decade as strictly a DH. The only reason he was even replaced as a DH in Chicago is because Frank Thomas was terrible in the field and, well, he was one of the top ten hitters of all-time...so that choice was obvious.




So, you have nothing to show how Baines was an 'amazing fielder' other than 'this is what I feel?'

Stats record what actually happened, and the stats don't show that Baines was a good fielder. You don't have a memory of every play Baines was involved with, hence what you feel/remember isn't relevant.
 

Jiddy

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I think you would find most Jazz fans agree that Jordan deserved it. Being a homer does not mean you have to ignore the obvious.

Probably not the ones that were chanting MVP when Malone went to the line in the Finals....But hey, you're right, I'm sure there are some out there that will take a reasonably humble position and give a nod to MJ. You should also ask those same types if they wanna come over to this forum and drop a bomb on HOF disgrace Harold Baines. Strengthen your posse mormon style.
 

Jiddy

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So, you have nothing to show how Baines was an 'amazing fielder' other than 'this is what I feel?'

Stats record what actually happened, and the stats don't show that Baines was a good fielder. You don't have a memory of every play Baines was involved with, hence what you feel/remember isn't relevant.

I'd say I've seen Baines play in person at least 50 times in my life. Old man had weekend season tickets in the 80s and lived in Brighton Park for a few years and would sneak in games all the time (5 minutes from Comiskey). Watching on TV as well? We're in the multiples of hundreds...Maybe a 1,000? I dunno. It's a lot cuz I'd watch the Sox daily in the late 80s into the 90s.

But really, it doesn't matter to you...so not sure why I'm sharing. LOL. Dude, it's ok. You're right. Harold Baines is most assuredly a stain on the reputation of the Hall because baseball-reference.com cannot be disputed by major league baseball election committees. Now breathe in through your nose. Exhale through your mouth. And revel in the rightness of you. Enjoy that sweet, sweet oh-so-temporary 13.7 seconds of pure bliss that you must be feeling. Feelings are relevant. Enjoy your relevant feelings. I'm happy for you.

Oh crap...Did I just disagree with you about the relevance of feelings?

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StanMarsh51

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I'd say I've seen Baines play in person at least 50 times in my life. Old man had weekend season tickets in the 80s and lived in Brighton Park for a few years and would sneak in games all the time (5 minutes from Comiskey). Watching on TV as well? We're in the multiples of hundreds...Maybe a 1,000? I dunno. It's a lot cuz I'd watch the Sox daily in the late 80s into the 90s.


So you were watching the Sox player daily in the late '80s and early '90s, when:
1) Baines became pretty much a full-time DH in '87
2) Baines was traded to the Rangers in '89


Your own timeline contradicts your belief of how much you saw him in the field....
 

idseer

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jiddy. fuck this asshole. this bullshit has gone on far too long. you and i know harold deserves the honor. let's stop feeding this sadist.
 

Jiddy

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So you were watching the Sox player daily in the late '80s and early '90s, when:
1) Baines became pretty much a full-time DH in '87
2) Baines was traded to the Rangers in '89


Your own timeline contradicts your belief of how much you saw him in the field....


Season ticket years were 82-83-84-85-86. (My old man gave up on them after that...Well...That and divorce financial hardship came into play, sadly)

And whattaya know...I CONTINUED to be a Sox fan and watch them into the 90s and through to today. True...and apparently for some, amazing.

I was in school so I mainly went to weekend games in those early years. Plus I was young, so I obviously don't remember everything (who does?)...but I know this...What little I remember is a far cry more than the "absolutely nothing" that you have seen. Whether you write that off as irrelevant is up to you. (LOL "whether..."When"...My bad) You can write off the folks that voted for him too. I'm sure their memories are sh*t too.

Get that whole 13.7 seconds of pure bliss in baby.
 

Jiddy

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jiddy. fuck this asshole. this bullshit has gone on far too long. you and i know harold deserves the honor. let's stop feeding this sadist.

The real thing that gets me is dude doesn't care...This argument could be about ANYTHING and he'd keep on going. Like a donkey chasing the carrot on a fishing pole. He gives zero f*cks whether Harold is in the hall or not. LOL.
 

StanMarsh51

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The real thing that gets me is dude doesn't care...This argument could be about ANYTHING and he'd keep on going. Like a donkey chasing the carrot on a fishing pole. He gives zero f*cks whether Harold is in the hall or not. LOL.


So why am I presenting facts (ie - statistics) and your argument is essentially that you loved the guy?

Is it a fact that DHing is less demanding than playing the field?
Is it a fact that Baines was rarely at the top of the league in any categories?
Is it a fact that he didn't have any elite runs in his career?
Is it a fact that he didn't win anything as a player outside of a single silver slugger?

Which of those are false, and why?
 
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idseer

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The real thing that gets me is dude doesn't care...This argument could be about ANYTHING and he'd keep on going. Like a donkey chasing the carrot on a fishing pole. He gives zero f*cks whether Harold is in the hall or not. LOL.
yep! i decided to just add the jerk to my ignore list.
 

msgkings322

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So players can be great without having a single great season?


:crazy:

Is Robin Ventura in your hall of fame? Magglio Ordonez? Mark Buehrle? Let's just put every ChiSox great in there...
Buehrle actually has a decent case
 

msgkings322

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Nice cherry pick... Why didn't you use a year like 1996 or 1997 or 1998, when 40+ players each year had 100 RBI? Is 100 RBI that special when 40+ guys reached it?

What years during Kalines's career did 40 guys get 100 RBI?
Talk about cherry pick. Baines was 1000 years old.then. his prime was the 80s, before the roids
 

StanMarsh51

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Talk about cherry pick. Baines was 1000 years old.then. his prime was the 80s, before the roids

Two of his top five RBI totals came in the mid to late '90s so it's not as if he he were some part time player who didn't benefit much from the offensive explosion of the '90s.
 

StanMarsh51

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Buehrle actually has a decent case

He's better than some guys in the hall (which says more about the voters), but there's nothing really HOF worthy about him...

3.81 ERA (117 ERA+)
1.28 WHIP
214-160 record
2.55 K/BB
4 seasons with a 5 WAR
Just 2 top 5 finishes in ERA, 2x in wins, 1x in WHIP

Good career, but I'd put him in a class with guys like Pettitte, Saberhagen, Hamel's, who fall short of the Hall.
 
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