10,000 Posts for a Flyers Cup in 2019

awaz · Oct 16, 2018

lasgop8 said:
You always mention the offense but you fail to mention he was minus 47 in those 6 years.

+/- is a super flawed stat. He doesn't get a plus for any PP goals they scored while he was on the ice. He does get a - for any empty net goals the other team scored why he was trying to tie the score at the end of games. And you get the plus, or minus, regardless of how involved in the play you were. If he just jumped over the bench and had 1 second of ice time, still counts.

And if you've got bad goaltending, which the Leafs had for some of that, or bad defense, which the Leafs had for all of that (and still do), you're going to get gashed.

For example, we all love Wayne Simmonds. He was -57 over those 6 years also.

lasgop8 · Oct 16, 2018

awaz said:
+/- is a super flawed stat. He doesn't get a plus for any PP goals they scored while he was on the ice. He does get a - for any empty net goals the other team scored why he was trying to tie the score at the end of games. And you get the plus, or minus, regardless of how involved in the play you were. If he just jumped over the bench and had 1 second of ice time, still counts.

And if you've got bad goaltending, which the Leafs had for some of that, or bad defense, which the Leafs had for all of that (and still do), you're going to get gashed.

For example, we all love Wayne Simmonds. He was -57 over those 6 years also.

We all love Wayne Simmonds for his hard nose style of play not for his spectacular offense. As we saw last year Simmers offense on the PP can be replaced by Patrick at any time. So when you say we love Simmer its his style of play that we love.

awaz · Oct 16, 2018

lasgop8 said:
We all love Wayne Simmonds for his hard nose style of play not for his spectacular offense. As we saw last year Simmers offense on the PP can be replaced by Patrick at any time. So when you say we love Simmer its his style of play that we love.

So you ignore Simmonds' +/- but not JvRs. That's my point. You pick and choose stats you like or don't like to perpetuate your hate of JvR.

You can not like JvR.
You can argue the Flyers could have done better in free agency.
You can argue the Flyers should have addressed other areas to improve for this season.
You can argue that adding JvR doesn't make them a cup contender.

But last years roster is inferior to this years roster because JvR is on it. That is a fact.

Chris p Bacon · Oct 16, 2018

awaz said:
Effort under Hak as a broad issue or specifically to JvR? He's only played 19 minutes under Hak so far, so probably a little early to be concerned about that.

I meant Haks overall approach, not on JVR but team as a whole. I just don't see play progressing under his system. Were at the same level or below at the start of the year, then we spend another big part of the season righting the ship but the push is so uphill by the time were at the playoffs the gas tank is on E. I don't know there's a lot of holes but just seems to me this team plays with no spark.

lasgop8 · Oct 16, 2018

awaz said:
So you ignore Simmonds' +/- but not JvRs. That's my point. You pick and choose stats you like or don't like to perpetuate your hate of JvR.

You can not like JvR.
You can argue the Flyers could have done better in free agency.
You can argue the Flyers should have addressed other areas to improve for this season.
You can argue that adding JvR doesn't make them a cup contender.

But last years roster is inferior to this years roster because JvR is on it. That is a fact.

What do you mean pick and choose stats? Simmer is just plain a better all around player than JVR. Simmer kills penalties is on the number one PP hits players can fight if he needs to and is a leader on the team . Both minus players yes Simmer is the better hockey player and i can argue that you have posted here before that its ok to let Simmer go for nothing and want to keep JVR for 7 million for 5 years. I cant understand that thinking.

How could it be a fact that this years team is better than last years? It can only be a fact if this years team has more points and a better playoff run than last years team.

awaz · Oct 16, 2018

Chris p Bacon said:
I meant Haks overall approach, not on JVR but team as a whole. I just don't see play progressing under his system. Were at the same level or below at the start of the year, then we spend another big part of the season righting the ship but the push is so uphill by the time were at the playoffs the gas tank is on E. I don't know there's a lot of holes but just seems to me this team plays with no spark.

You won't find me defending Hak much. I don't like him at all. I agree 100%, the team rarely plays with the right amount of energy with him behind the bench. His calm, cool demeanor can be a benefit, if the team is wired and prone to over-excitement. That might have been the case at the beginning of Hak's tenure, but it's not any more. Giroux, Simmonds, they were the fireplugs. Hak seems to have calmed them down to the point where now they just look lethargic sometimes.

I also think he's a horrible in-game coach. His desire to hang on to timeouts and keep the goalie in when he's "fighting through it" costs the team around 5 points per season I would guess.

The only thing I will defend him on, he has gotten a lot out of some of the youngsters. Ghost, Konecny, and Provorov in particular. Plus he's unlocked some offense in Couturier. But the lack of fire is a problem. And his lineup decisions at times are very suspect (though I don't think he's made many so far this season, he hasn't really had a chance to, just playing the healthy guys, but still, he's done it right.)

lasgop8 · Oct 16, 2018

Im picking Lindblom tonight

awaz · Oct 16, 2018

lasgop8 said:
What do you mean pick and choose stats? Simmer is just plain a better all around player than JVR. Simmer kills penalties is on the number one PP hits players can fight if he needs to and is a leader on the team . Both minus players yes Simmer is the better hockey player and i can argue that you have posted here before that its ok to let Simmer go for nothing and want to keep JVR for 7 million for 5 years. I cant understand that thinking.

How could it be a fact that this years team is better than last years? It can only be a fact if this years team has more points and a better playoff run than last years team.

1. Pick and choose stats - You revert back to +/- as a statistic to 'prove' JvR isn't as good as the other stats I put out indicate he is, but never reference them in terms of Simmonds. If you truly believe +/- is an important stat and deserves discussion when we talk JvR, then it deserves to be mentioned when we talk about Simmonds. That's all i'm saying there.

2. Simmonds vs. JvR - It's not just about who is the better hockey player. I agree, I would take Simmonds in his prime over JvR in his prime. But that's not what the decision is. Simmonds will be 31 on opening night next year (1st year of his new contract). JvR was 29 on opening night this year (1st year of his new contract). So right there, even if they got the exact same 7Mx5y deal, that's a swing towards JvR. If my choice is 29-34 of JvR versus 31-36 of Simmonds for the same money, I'm going to take JvR. That is my point. In this hypothetical, JvR 'playing soft' also makes him age better. I think JvR at 34 will bring more than Simmonds at 34 because I think Simmonds is going to wear down faster because he's played that tougher game.

3. Simmonds' Next Contract - I have said I would be willing to let Simmonds go for nothing. And I stand by that for multiple reasons with a caveat. Starting with the caveat first, if Simmonds is willing to sign for something like 7Mx3y, I would be willing to re-sign him. Alternatively, if he was willing to sign for like 4Mx6y, I would do that. In my opinion, and i'm sure in Simmonds'/his agents opinion, he's going to be able to get more than that. As we mention in point #2, Simmonds brings more to the table than JvR, so I expect he'll be able to get at least 7Mx5y, maybe even 7x7 for some team like the Oilers that are desperate to make a splash and push for cups. I can't fault Simmonds for not signing one of my offers to take that one. That's his prerogative. I don't want the Flyers paying that money though. I think Simmonds has 2-3 years left of high level production left. If you sign him for 7Mx5y, I think you're paying 7M for a 4th liner for at least 1-2 of those seasons. The Flyers can't afford to do that in 2-3 years when they're trying to win cup(s). It would be poor cap management to re-sign Simmonds to a contract like that when he's 31 years old.

4. Letting Simmonds' walk for nothing - This one kind of blows my mind that we differ honestly. Taking into account #3 here, that he will be able to get more than i'd be willing to give him, your choice is keep him for a playoff run this year, or trade him, most likely for picks/prospects. I say that, because teams that will want to acquire him, want to acquire him to make a playoff run of their own. They don't want to add Simmonds by getting rid of player(s) off their current roster. So your choice is keep Simmonds for your own run, or trade him for picks/prospects. To me, it's time to start winning playoff games/series. Keep Simmonds, start winning those games. If he walks for nothing in July, so be it, at least you (hopefully) won some playoff games/series this season. To me, it's no different than you wanting to trade picks/prospects for Grabner at the deadline last year, it's just reversed. Instead of acquiring/keeping the draft picks, I want to acquire/keep the NHL talent. The time is now IMO. Plus, Simmonds is not a Tavares situation. Tavares is a franchise cornerstone, Simmonds, as much as I love him, is a 2nd or 3rd liner that brings energy and is an elite PP player. Trading Tavares you get a promising young NHL-er at whatever position you desire plus a 1st round pick or two and some other prospects. Trading Simmonds you probably get a 1st round pick and a middling prospect. It's a totally different situation. By trading Tavares you can rebuild your team and your core. By trading Simmonds you're kicking the 'talent can' down the road so you have future talent to replace him.

5. Better team - JvR essentially replaced Raffl in the top 9. That makes them better because JvR > Raffl. If you don't agree that JvR > Raffl, then you are looking at this will full blinders on and it's pointless to continue this conversation. JvR not PK-ing is irrelevant, because his addition did not remove Raffl from the team, he can still PK the same as last year (though they did not use him last year). It pushed Matt Read or Dale Weise off the team and Raffl > Read/Weise.

(The only other change to the top 9 was Vorobyev replacing Filpula, which is also an upgrade IMO. But that is irrelevant to the JvR discussion)

awaz · Oct 16, 2018

I'm going Ghost tonight.

lasgop8 · Oct 16, 2018

awaz said:
1. Pick and choose stats - You revert back to +/- as a statistic to 'prove' JvR isn't as good as the other stats I put out indicate he is, but never reference them in terms of Simmonds. If you truly believe +/- is an important stat and deserves discussion when we talk JvR, then it deserves to be mentioned when we talk about Simmonds. That's all i'm saying there.

2. Simmonds vs. JvR - It's not just about who is the better hockey player. I agree, I would take Simmonds in his prime over JvR in his prime. But that's not what the decision is. Simmonds will be 31 on opening night next year (1st year of his new contract). JvR was 29 on opening night this year (1st year of his new contract). So right there, even if they got the exact same 7Mx5y deal, that's a swing towards JvR. If my choice is 29-34 of JvR versus 31-36 of Simmonds for the same money, I'm going to take JvR. That is my point. In this hypothetical, JvR 'playing soft' also makes him age better. I think JvR at 34 will bring more than Simmonds at 34 because I think Simmonds is going to wear down faster because he's played that tougher game.

3. Simmonds' Next Contract - I have said I would be willing to let Simmonds go for nothing. And I stand by that for multiple reasons with a caveat. Starting with the caveat first, if Simmonds is willing to sign for something like 7Mx3y, I would be willing to re-sign him. Alternatively, if he was willing to sign for like 4Mx6y, I would do that. In my opinion, and i'm sure in Simmonds'/his agents opinion, he's going to be able to get more than that. As we mention in point #2, Simmonds brings more to the table than JvR, so I expect he'll be able to get at least 7Mx5y, maybe even 7x7 for some team like the Oilers that are desperate to make a splash and push for cups. I can't fault Simmonds for not signing one of my offers to take that one. That's his prerogative. I don't want the Flyers paying that money though. I think Simmonds has 2-3 years left of high level production left. If you sign him for 7Mx5y, I think you're paying 7M for a 4th liner for at least 1-2 of those seasons. The Flyers can't afford to do that in 2-3 years when they're trying to win cup(s). It would be poor cap management to re-sign Simmonds to a contract like that when he's 31 years old.

4. Letting Simmonds' walk for nothing - This one kind of blows my mind that we differ honestly. Taking into account #3 here, that he will be able to get more than i'd be willing to give him, your choice is keep him for a playoff run this year, or trade him, most likely for picks/prospects. I say that, because teams that will want to acquire him, want to acquire him to make a playoff run of their own. They don't want to add Simmonds by getting rid of player(s) off their current roster. So your choice is keep Simmonds for your own run, or trade him for picks/prospects. To me, it's time to start winning playoff games/series. Keep Simmonds, start winning those games. If he walks for nothing in July, so be it, at least you (hopefully) won some playoff games/series this season. To me, it's no different than you wanting to trade picks/prospects for Grabner at the deadline last year, it's just reversed. Instead of acquiring/keeping the draft picks, I want to acquire/keep the NHL talent. The time is now IMO. Plus, Simmonds is not a Tavares situation. Tavares is a franchise cornerstone, Simmonds, as much as I love him, is a 2nd or 3rd liner that brings energy and is an elite PP player. Trading Tavares you get a promising young NHL-er at whatever position you desire plus a 1st round pick or two and some other prospects. Trading Simmonds you probably get a 1st round pick and a middling prospect. It's a totally different situation. By trading Tavares you can rebuild your team and your core. By trading Simmonds you're kicking the 'talent can' down the road so you have future talent to replace him.

5. Better team - JvR essentially replaced Raffl in the top 9. That makes them better because JvR > Raffl. If you don't agree that JvR > Raffl, then you are looking at this will full blinders on and it's pointless to continue this conversation. JvR not PK-ing is irrelevant, because his addition did not remove Raffl from the team, he can still PK the same as last year (though they did not use him last year). It pushed Matt Read or Dale Weise off the team and Raffl > Read/Weise.

(The only other change to the top 9 was Vorobyev replacing Filpula, which is also an upgrade IMO. But that is irrelevant to the JvR discussion)

So much to disagree with here i will just leave it again as we will have to agree to disagree.

awaz · Oct 16, 2018

lasgop8 said:
So much to disagree with here i will just leave it again as we will have to agree to disagree.

Aww come on. We're not going to get to 10K like that

lasgop8 · Oct 16, 2018

awaz said:
Aww come on. We're not going to get to 10K like that

lasgop8 · Oct 16, 2018

I would love to know the reason that TK was demoted off the first line.

awaz · Oct 16, 2018

lasgop8 said:
I would love to know the reason that TK was demoted off the first line.

Id like to see TK back up there too. That line is great, let it be great.

Chris p Bacon · Oct 16, 2018

awaz said:
Id like to see TK back up there too. That line is great, let it be great.

I would like to see Laughten get some time on the 2nd line, He has earned it IMO, but I just really want to see if he can energize some of the other top tier players.

awaz · Oct 16, 2018

Chris p Bacon said:
I would like to see Laughten get some time on the 2nd line, He has earned it IMO, but I just really want to see if he can energize some of the other top tier players.

Laughton's been great this year. He's shown flashes of this in the past, I hope he keeps it up. I love his energy.

IMO, he's exactly the type of guy you want on the 4th line. Has the skill to play higher in the lineup if necessary and provide at least some threat offensively from the 4th line. Can be a good PK-er, and can be a force on the forecheck. His speed and propensity to hit people brings energy. I'd take 3 of him for the 4th line. He's the type of grit/energy I would prefer to some of the bigger guys.

chy1127 · Oct 16, 2018

Jake tonight as it is his Chia Pet night!

Chris p Bacon · Oct 16, 2018

Wow just wow, Provy looks like shit this year.

mall3013 · Oct 16, 2018

How does this team continue to struggle with the talent we have? How do we give up a 5-2 lead on home ice? It's literally the same shit just a different season. And here we are about to go into the shootout and we know how this story ends.

mall3013 · Oct 16, 2018

Wow. We won in a shootout. Call me surprised!

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