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Monday night game vs Bears

beardown07

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If you watch his eyes i swear they ar eon the CB then he shifts them to Penny and lets the ball fly. It was like WTF did you see!


It happens to the best of em'. Wilson doesn't have a lot of help right now. Trying to do too much can lead to that nonsense sometimes.



Good luck the rest the way!
 

Screamin12th

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It happens to the best of em'. Wilson doesn't have a lot of help right now. Trying to do too much can lead to that nonsense sometimes.



Good luck the rest the way!

thing is on that play you do not throw the ball if the CB doesn't break down. Thats a quick up where as soon as the CB turns then the WR breaks down and the QB hit's him. The CB NEVER broke down he NEVER turned. I was taught that in HIGH SCHOOL!

To be honest on that play Penny should have just took off if that was a option route. Prince would have never been able to turn in time to stay with him. He was flat footed sitting on the quick hitter all the way.
 

blstoker

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The problem with that play was that the ball came loose and THEN the refs blew the whistle to indicate forward progress had been stopped. If they blow the whistle and then the ball comes out it's a different story. It did look like forward progress may have been stopped. Blowing it dead after the fumble is just bad officiating.

That's exactly what my problem was. It wasn't even close. The ball was bouncing several times before the whistle blew. Play isn't dead til the whistle blows, so now they're turning the clock back 2 seconds?
 

BSUSeahawk

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Maybe. Matt Ryan was a couple play calls away from winning a Super Bowl and we nearly in at least one more. Derek Carr was probably given his contract before he really deserved it.

I doubt that the Lions would do anything different with Stafford in retrospect.

I'm talking Matt Ryan post-contract. Unless I'm mistaken, he got paid afterwards.

The Lions did exactly what I'm fearful of. They paid their franchise QB and now they're perennially mediocre.

Carr and Jimmy G both got paid before they deserved it. But that's how it goes with perceived "franchise QBs" now.

The Jags were absolutely ATROCIOUS for YEARS! Drafting in the top 5 every year gives you a great chance at building your talent up. The Rams and Eagles drafted their guys #1 and #2 respectively overall in their draft. Yes, it's great when you can draft a stud QB and keep him cost controlled for 5 years. Of course that requires being terrible or hitting the draft lottery ala Russell Wilson.

Right, but it's not like those examples are good BECAUSE of their high picked QBs. Wentz is good, sure, but they won in the playoffs with Nick Foles. Bortles and Goff were picked high, but they are far from the main reason their teams are good.

First off I'm not equating Wilson to Aaron Rodgers. I'd also argue that if you look at the situation so that only Rodgers is worth a huge contract, then you have a wildly unrealistic view of how the NFL works.

Seems like you just want to dismiss what Wilson has done. To each their own I guess.

I think there are more QBs than Aaron Rodgers worth superstar QB money. But my point is that if you can't pay a QB that money and win, what's the point? The Seahawks can't tie up $30M in their cap with Russell and be a SB contender. So while I agree that finding a QB is the hardest thing to do in the NFL, if it puts you in NFL purgatory, is it really worth it? You could make the argument that it's better to be competitive year in and year out than take a huge risk I suppose.

I'm not trying to dismiss what Russell's done. He's a good QB, under the right circumstances. He was the perfect fit for what we had in the 2012 - 2016 range.
 

flyerhawk

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I'm talking Matt Ryan post-contract. Unless I'm mistaken, he got paid afterwards.

The Lions did exactly what I'm fearful of. They paid their franchise QB and now they're perennially mediocre.

Carr and Jimmy G both got paid before they deserved it. But that's how it goes with perceived "franchise QBs" now.

Matt Ryan was a play away from the NFC championship last year.

That's the way it goes because that's the market for starting QBs. What has Kirk Cousins done to warrant the contract he got?

Having a top tier QB doesn't guarantee you Super Bowls. Having a mediocre QB pretty much guarantees you to be an average to bad football team barring an absolutely jackpot of a lottery.


Right, but it's not like those examples are good BECAUSE of their high picked QBs. Wentz is good, sure, but they won in the playoffs with Nick Foles. Bortles and Goff were picked high, but they are far from the main reason their teams are good.

Nick Foles played 2 games really well and was poor in the other games he played in. Had he started the season for the Eagles they would not have won the Super Bowl. Carson Wentz was 10-1 with the team last year.



I think there are more QBs than Aaron Rodgers worth superstar QB money. But my point is that if you can't pay a QB that money and win, what's the point? The Seahawks can't tie up $30M in their cap with Russell and be a SB contender. So while I agree that finding a QB is the hardest thing to do in the NFL, if it puts you in NFL purgatory, is it really worth it? You could make the argument that it's better to be competitive year in and year out than take a huge risk I suppose.

There are no teams that are competitive year in and year out without a top tier QB. NONE. At best those teams have a 2 or 3 year window before fading into obscurity.

I'm not trying to dismiss what Russell's done. He's a good QB, under the right circumstances. He was the perfect fit for what we had in the 2012 - 2016 range.

But not the right fit for a team with 4 starting rookies on their team and nearly every experienced player on the DL? I agree.
 

BSUSeahawk

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Matt Ryan was a play away from the NFC championship last year.

That's the way it goes because that's the market for starting QBs. What has Kirk Cousins done to warrant the contract he got?

Having a top tier QB doesn't guarantee you Super Bowls. Having a mediocre QB pretty much guarantees you to be an average to bad football team barring an absolutely jackpot of a lottery.

Here's the list of QBs who made the playoffs last year:

- AFC: Brady, Roethlisberger, Bortles, A. Smith, Mariota, T. Taylor
- NFC: Wentz/Foles, Keenum, Goff, Brees, Newton, Ryan

Depending on your definition of mediocre, there's at least 5-6 mediocre QBs in that bunch. Now, long term? That's a different discussion.

Nick Foles played 2 games really well and was poor in the other games he played in. Had he started the season for the Eagles they would not have won the Super Bowl. Carson Wentz was 10-1 with the team last year.

Fair.

There are no teams that are competitive year in and year out without a top tier QB. NONE. At best those teams have a 2 or 3 year window before fading into obscurity.

I agree that having a franchise QB is the best way to guarantee year in and year out competitiveness. But within that "tier" there's a sliding scale. Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roeth and a couple others can mask a LOT of deficiencies. Stafford, Newton, Ryan, Wilson and others? Not as much.

But not the right fit for a team with 4 starting rookies on their team and nearly every experienced player on the DL? I agree.

It's not exactly earth shattering news to state that a QB is at his best when the team is good around him, but Wilson benefits more than most. He's not very good in the pocket, so when he has a poor line or a run game and playing catch up due to a bad defense, he's going to be more impacted than most.
 

chf

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This narrative that he's not good in the pocket is simply BS. He has been really good in the pocket when he's HAD a pocket. The last half of two seasons ago is a good example. Stats bear it out too. On plays where he stays home, he's been really good in the pocket, one of the best.

Sadly that hasn't been a regular occurrence.

We're so spoiled, we take superior QB play for granted.
 

JMR

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This narrative that he's not good in the pocket is simply BS. He has been really good in the pocket when he's HAD a pocket. The last half of two seasons ago is a good example. Stats bear it out too. On plays where he stays home, he's been really good in the pocket, one of the best.

Sadly that hasn't been a regular occurrence.

We're so spoiled, we take superior QB play for granted.
It's amazing (and maybe it shouldn't be) how much weight is being put on these last 2 games vs the 6 years of games that precede them.
 

BSUSeahawk

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This narrative that he's not good in the pocket is simply BS. He has been really good in the pocket when he's HAD a pocket. The last half of two seasons ago is a good example. Stats bear it out too. On plays where he stays home, he's been really good in the pocket, one of the best.

Sadly that hasn't been a regular occurrence.

We're so spoiled, we take superior QB play for granted.

"Good in the pocket" is mostly subjective, but I can't fathom how anyone could come to the opinion that it's a strength for Wilson. By no means am I trying to saying he's had a great offensive line or anything, but Wilson makes them look worse than they are by running into sacks and holding the ball longer than he should. It's not like this is an unpopular opinion or anything, basically every analyst calling the came points it out on a weekly basis.

Whether or not he's good *when* he stays in the pocket isn't my point. The frequency in which he bails on pockets that are adequate or creates his own trouble by running into defensive lineman (i.e. Monday's fumble) is far too high.
 

chf

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"Good in the pocket" is mostly subjective, but I can't fathom how anyone could come to the opinion that it's a strength for Wilson. By no means am I trying to saying he's had a great offensive line or anything, but Wilson makes them look worse than they are by running into sacks and holding the ball longer than he should. It's not like this is an unpopular opinion or anything, basically every analyst calling the came points it out on a weekly basis.

Whether or not he's good *when* he stays in the pocket isn't my point. The frequency in which he bails on pockets that are adequate or creates his own trouble by running into defensive lineman (i.e. Monday's fumble) is far too high.

So ask the fans of the NY Giants how it is having a QB who CAN'T go off script, run around, and improvise plays with a shitty o-line.

Does he have periods where he's too quick to run? Sure. Did he STILL throw for 4000 yards and lead the NFL in TD's last year with a crap O-line?

Yep, he did. That's not just me saying that btw, it's you know, a stat n' all.

You know how many Seahawks QB's have thrown for 4000? 1.

Kitna and Moon did it, but neither as Seahawks.
 

JMR

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"Good in the pocket" is mostly subjective, but I can't fathom how anyone could come to the opinion that it's a strength for Wilson.

Well, he's certainly excelled at it at times (and not just a game here and a game there). In fact, he posted a passer rating of 118.6 from the pocket in 2015 (before the garbage lines of the last 2 seasons), which was not only the highest of any QB that year but also the highest of any for the 2 seasons before it as well. My son (19 y/o) is all into the advanced stats sites, and he says RW is the highest rated pocket passer in the NFL since he came into the league....and it makes sense when you consider he's also the 2nd highest rated passer of all time. Now, does that mean he's the 2nd best passer ever? No, of course not. But it sure doesn't support the notion that throwing from the pocket isn't a strength....whether you can fathom it or not.

EDIT: "when not pressured" from inside the pocket should be a qualifier on the advanced stats mention. (as compared to all other passers when they are not pressured, so same playing field)
 

WizardHawk

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Wilson only knew Bevell for the first what, 6 years of his career? :noidea:

Either he's clearly struggling to adapt to Schotty, or the other way around, but it sure hasn't clicked. Yet.

Any thought/discussion of letting Wilson go when the line isn't doing much, the running game is horrible, he just faced two pretty solid pass rush teams, AND is still trying to adapt to a completely different coordinator/play caller is a bit extreme and rather short sighted.
 

BSUSeahawk

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So ask the fans of the NY Giants how it is having a QB who CAN'T go off script, run around, and improvise plays with a shitty o-line.

Does he have periods where he's too quick to run? Sure. Did he STILL throw for 4000 yards and lead the NFL in TD's last year with a crap O-line?

Yep, he did. That's not just me saying that btw, it's you know, a stat n' all.

You know how many Seahawks QB's have thrown for 4000? 1.

Kitna and Moon did it, but neither as Seahawks.

I can concede that Wilson's pocket awareness is more nuanced than "it's bad". And his mobility and the fact that he can go off-script is obviously a big asset at times. But that doesn't take away from my point that he causes a lot of his own problems within the pocket. For whatever reason he's really regressed since the 2015 season at making quick reads and getting rid of it. And even if I give you that the O-line is still "terrible" (which I don't necessarily agree with), that's even more reason that he should be quicker getting rid of the ball.
 

BSUSeahawk

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Well, he's certainly excelled at it at times (and not just a game here and a game there). In fact, he posted a passer rating of 118.6 from the pocket in 2015 (before the garbage lines of the last 2 seasons), which was not only the highest of any QB that year but also the highest of any for the 2 seasons before it as well. My son (19 y/o) is all into the advanced stats sites, and he says RW is the highest rated pocket passer in the NFL since he came into the league....and it makes sense when you consider he's also the 2nd highest rated passer of all time. Now, does that mean he's the 2nd best passer ever? No, of course not. But it sure doesn't support the notion that throwing from the pocket isn't a strength....whether you can fathom it or not.

EDIT: "when not pressured" from inside the pocket should be a qualifier on the advanced stats mention. (as compared to all other passers when they are not pressured, so same playing field)

Ok? This doesn't have anything to do with what I'm saying.

I'm well aware that his passer rating is good from the pocket, as it is across the board. In general, he's extremely accurate, which is the number one contributor to having a good passer rating.

The problems/issues I was referring to aren't reflected in passer rating, nor were they an indictment on his throwing talent what-so-ever. When he decides to throw, he's an elite passer. No question.
 

chf

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I can concede that Wilson's pocket awareness is more nuanced than "it's bad". And his mobility and the fact that he can go off-script is obviously a big asset at times. But that doesn't take away from my point that he causes a lot of his own problems within the pocket. For whatever reason he's really regressed since the 2015 season at making quick reads and getting rid of it. And even if I give you that the O-line is still "terrible" (which I don't necessarily agree with), that's even more reason that he should be quicker getting rid of the ball.

So how in the living fuck did he manage to throw for 4000 and lead the NFL in TD's?

Last year, particularly early, it was a friggin jailbreak on some plays. Guys rushing the passer weren't even impeded by the lunging O-lineman.

Now look. If the line DOES get its shit together, and Wilson still runs around like a head-off-chicken, I'll tip my cap to you. But Wilson STILL does a lot of stuff in a fundamentally sound way. Despite the ungodly pressure, how many times have you seen him throw off his back foot? He STILL strides into throws like he should. He's his own unique animal with that short-stop on the run throw he does. But he doesn't usually regress into bad habits like most QB's who get hit a lot do.

Again, we're incredibly spoiled.
 

chf

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Ok? This doesn't have anything to do with what I'm saying.

I'm well aware that his passer rating is good from the pocket, as it is across the board. In general, he's extremely accurate, which is the number one contributor to having a good passer rating.

The problems/issues I was referring to aren't reflected in passer rating, nor were they an indictment on his throwing talent what-so-ever. When he decides to throw, he's an elite passer. No question.

Well you lost me here. Have no idea what the hell you're going on about then.
 

BSUSeahawk

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So how in the living fuck did he manage to throw for 4000 and lead the NFL in TD's?

Last year, particularly early, it was a friggin jailbreak on some plays. Guys rushing the passer weren't even impeded by the lunging O-lineman.

Now look. If the line DOES get its shit together, and Wilson still runs around like a head-off-chicken, I'll tip my cap to you. But Wilson STILL does a lot of stuff in a fundamentally sound way. Despite the ungodly pressure, how many times have you seen him throw off his back foot? He STILL strides into throws like he should. He's his own unique animal with that short-stop on the run throw he does. But he doesn't usually regress into bad habits like most QB's who get hit a lot do.

Again, we're incredibly spoiled.

I'm not sure the relevance of your first sentence, to be honest. 4000 yards isn't exactly the benchmark it used to be. His position of 9th in yards passing put him in between Alex Smith and Jared Goff. 4000 yards basically includes the entire top 10. Only 5 QBs threw the ball more than he did last year and the Seahawks had a terrible rushing attack, so it's pretty easy to see how he accumulated 4000 yards and 30+ touchdowns.

Russell is a great passer, I've never said anything to the contrary. I think we're getting crossed up here a bit. My issue with Wilson is his reluctance to throw the ball and the mistakes that leads to (6 fumbles last year and another one on Monday night).
 

BSUSeahawk

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Well you lost me here. Have no idea what the hell you're going on about then.

Well I've explained it numerous times.

If my gripe with Wilson is him running into sacks and holding the ball too long, in what world does a rebuttal featuring a bunch of passing statistics make any sense? I never said that he wasn't a good passer from the pocket.

I think Russell is one of the 5 best arm talents in the NFL. He has a strong arm and is incredibly accurate. More so than any QB I've ever seen play for the Seahawks in my lifetime. He just gets in these ruts where he's far too reluctant to pass and it kills drives either by sacks or turnovers.
 

chf

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Well I've explained it numerous times.

If my gripe with Wilson is him running into sacks and holding the ball too long, in what world does a rebuttal featuring a bunch of passing statistics make any sense? I never said that he wasn't a good passer from the pocket.

I think Russell is one of the 5 best arm talents in the NFL. He has a strong arm and is incredibly accurate. More so than any QB I've ever seen play for the Seahawks in my lifetime. He just gets in these ruts where he's far too reluctant to pass and it kills drives either by sacks or turnovers.

Yep, he has short stretches where he gets a bit off his game.

If you just start at elite passer, nobody says boo to your post. It wasn't at all clear that you thought he was an elite passer.

But sure, I can agree. Russ's physical toolset allows him to try to make plays that other QB's wouldn't even dream of trying. Rodgers when healthy can move around pretty well too, and let me suggest that if Rodgers O-line ever played like Seattle's the last three years, he'd get into trouble trying to make chicken salad out of chicken shit too.

Rodgers will hold the ball way too 'long,' in the pocket too. He did against the Vikes several times, because he trusted his O-line.
 

chf

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And let me add on with this reminder. The second half of two seasons ago, was Russ getting the ball out quickly and being a distributor. His numbers in that half season were ridiculously good.

That's what makes me wonder what kind of numbers he'll pile up if our O-line ever gels.
 
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