2014 HHOF induction class

[DragonfromTO]

They possibly would have won once with Eric Lindros, but I'm curious if you're making the assumption that he still has the injury issues even in Colorado? And also remember, if the Avs(Nordiques at the time) didn't trade Eric Lindros, the Avs would eventually be in the same spot as the Flyers because the Avs wouldn't have had all those pieces they got in return for Eric - that's why I feel like Foppa's role in the Avs winning the Cups are not taken seriously enough because without Foppa's major contributions, does Joe Sakic score more? Foppa was as important to that team as anyone sans Patrick Roy because they needed a guy to take the pressure off Joe Sakic in the scoring department, without Foppa who knows what happens

I'm operating under the assumption that he would have had the injury problems, yes. If he doesn't have the injury problems we're probably not even having this argument in the first place, so we sort of have to make that assumption.

Foppa didn't even play in the final two rounds of the playoffs the 2nd time they won the Cup. Which isn't such a big knock in this argument because Lindros didn't play that season anyway.

Of course Forsberg was an important part of that team. Who is saying otherwise?

 

[Cobiemonster]

I'm operating under the assumption that he would have had the injury problems, yes. If he doesn't have the injury problems we're probably not even having this argument in the first place, so we sort of have to make that assumption.

Foppa didn't even play in the final two rounds of the playoffs the 2nd time they won the Cup. Which isn't such a big knock in this argument because Lindros didn't play that season anyway.

Of course Forsberg was an important part of that team. Who is saying otherwise?

In the debate, some people have mentioned that Foppa had more of a supporting cast than Eric so that would lead me to believe that some people think Eric was better because maybe he did more with a lesser supporting cast

 

[DragonfromTO]

In the debate, some people have mentioned that Foppa had more of a supporting cast than Eric so that would lead me to believe that some people think Eric was better because maybe he did more with a lesser supporting cast

How does that equate to "Forsberg wasn't an important part of those Colorado teams"?

I think the more significant role of the "supporting cast" point here is in explaining/countering the "team success" aspect of the argument.

But yeah, I do think that Sakic and Forsberg probably indirectly aided each other's raw numbers a little bit since other teams couldn't match their "shutdown" guys against one of their lines without leaving the other one free. Whereas when you played Philly there was no doubt about who was getting your attention.

 

[Cobiemonster]

How does that equate to "Forsberg wasn't an important part of those Colorado teams"?

I think the more significant role of the "supporting cast" point here is in explaining/countering the "team success" aspect of the argument.

But yeah, I do think that Sakic and Forsberg probably indirectly aided each other's raw numbers a little bit since other teams couldn't match their "shutdown" guys against one of their lines without leaving the other one free. Whereas when you played Philly there was no doubt about who was getting your attention.

Well I think the point was that Eric Lindros did more with less so people might have thought, "Well if he had a supporting cast he would have had at least 1, maybe 2 cups" and that it wasn't his fault that they lost in those big games

Looking back on it, the way the Avs swept the Panthers, I'm guessing with Eric Lindros they still would have won the cup that year, when they won the second one in 2000, that was around the time he was starting to go downhill in his career, maybe or maybe they don't win the cup that year - but I'm going under the assumption that if Eric was with the Avs then the Avs wouldn't have Foppa or any of the other pieces they got in the deal, so things might have been slightly different

 

[DragonfromTO]

Well I think the point was that Eric Lindros did more with less so people might have thought, "Well if he had a supporting cast he would have had at least 1, maybe 2 cups" and that it wasn't his fault that they lost in those big games

Looking back on it, the way the Avs swept the Panthers, I'm guessing with Eric Lindros they still would have won the cup that year, when they won the second one in 2000, that was around the time he was starting to go downhill in his career, maybe or maybe they don't win the cup that year - but I'm going under the assumption that if Eric was with the Avs then the Avs wouldn't have Foppa or any of the other pieces they got in the deal, so things might have been slightly different

If we're just looking to compare the two players it seems silly to me to undo the actual real life trade. It's just one player for the other, straight up.

 

[Cobiemonster]

If we're just looking to compare the two players it seems silly to me to undo the actual real life trade. It's just one player for the other, straight up.

I agree on that - and that's why I said that Eric Lindros might have still won a cup or two in Colorado if you swap him and Foppa

I look at it this way:

Eric Lindros - Great regular season stats + not bad in playoffs but not great either
Peter Forsberg - Great regular season stats + Great playoff stats

Peter Forsberg has the edge because he was great overall in both, but it's not like Eric Lindros was bad either - as I said I think both of them should be in, they were both phenomenal but I think if we're simply discussing who was better I'd go with Foppa because he was great in both the regular season and playoffs during his entire career - he had a little bit more longevity than Eric Lindros which I think helps Foppa, his career really didn't go down in a crashing halt like Eric Lindros did

 

[DragonfromTO]

I agree on that - and that's why I said that Eric Lindros might have still won a cup or two in Colorado if you swap him and Foppa

I look at it this way:

Eric Lindros - Great regular season stats + not bad in playoffs but not great either
Peter Forsberg - Great regular season stats + Great playoff stats

Peter Forsberg has the edge because he was great overall in both, but it's not like Eric Lindros was bad either - as I said I think both of them should be in, they were both phenomenal but I think if we're simply discussing who was better I'd go with Foppa because he was great in both the regular season and playoffs during his entire career - he had a little bit more longevity than Eric Lindros which I think helps Foppa, his career really didn't go down in a crashing halt like Eric Lindros did

This is interesting... when I did the play index ranking initially it had Lindros slightly ahead of Forsberg, and now when I did it again to pull up the numbers he comes up slightly behind. You know why I think it was? I think the first time I filtered for "centres" because I didn't know how big a list I was going to have to manage and so it didn't include the 3 games he played in the playoffs in his final season in Dallas because they were technically as a winger? Weird shit.

Anyway, they are still pretty much identical in the post-season (1.13 vs 1.08 rather than 1.13 vs 1.14) and both are in the top 20 all-time for playoff points per game, so I still fail to understand how one performance can be seen as "great" while the other is merely "not bad". Hell, I keep hearing that Jonathan Toews is Mr. SuperClutch and he's a quarter point below both of them and barely in the top 100. Steve Yzerman is also significantly below Lindros, and I've never heard his postseason performance referred to as "not bad".

 

[Cobiemonster]

This is interesting... when I did the play index ranking initially it had Lindros slightly ahead of Forsberg, and now when I did it again to pull up the numbers he comes up slightly behind. You know why I think it was? I think the first time I filtered for "centres" because I didn't know how big a list I was going to have to manage and so it didn't include the 3 games he played in the playoffs in his final season in Dallas because they were technically as a winger? Weird shit.

Anyway, they are still pretty much identical in the post-season (1.13 vs 1.08 rather than 1.13 vs 1.14) and both are in the top 20 all-time for playoff points per game, so I still fail to understand how one performance can be seen as "great" while the other is merely "not bad". Hell, I keep hearing that Jonathan Toews is Mr. SuperClutch and he's a quarter point below both of them and barely in the top 100. Steve Yzerman is also significantly below Lindros, and I've never heard his postseason performance referred to as "not bad".

I think people are just concerned about winning, quite honestly at this point - the stats are fine and all but I think winning means a lot more to certain people

I think also, people don't realize that for a while Steve Yzerman didn't do jack shit when it mattered the most but once he won a Cup it all changed - that's where the perception comes into play

 

[DragonfromTO]

I think people are just concerned about winning, quite honestly at this point - the stats are fine and all but I think winning means a lot more to certain people

I think also, people don't realize that for a while Steve Yzerman didn't do jack shit when it mattered the most but once he won a Cup it all changed - that's where the perception comes into play

Yzerman got his first Cup ring in '97. Here are his postseason stats:

Steve Yzerman through 1996: 93 GP, 98 points, 1.05 PPG

Steve Yzerman 1997-2006: 103 GP, 87 points, 0.84 PPG

So the takeaway should be that the relevant facts show that he did plenty when it mattered before winning a Cup, whether people realized it or not. There's no doubt that some (probably a lot of) people buy into these bullshit narratives, but more often than not they're not just looking at things from a different angle, they're simply wrong.

 

[DevilishWon]

I'd say that the biggest factor in the Flyers getting swept that series was their goalies putting up a SV% of .861, not a lack of "leadership" by Lindros (who had 3 points to Brind'Amour's 4 in that series anyway).

.

And therein lies the problem in judging strictly by numbers although even there Brindy was better than Eric in that series. Brind'Amour played with passion and heart in that series (Lindros did not), Brind'Amour was one of the few Flyers in that series who played with desperation which as captain Eric not only should have but should have led his teammates to do as well.

All that said the point isn't Brind'amour vs Lindros but rather Lindros was never a big time player in big games despite massive talent

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Announcement today at 3 ET.

I think Hasek and Forsberg both get first ballot hono(u)rs.

More importantly, I think this is the year Burns finally gets the nod.

 

[mattola]

Announcement today at 3 ET.

I think Hasek and Forsberg both get first ballot hono(u)rs.

More importantly, I think this is the year Burns finally gets the nod.

who is the committee that votes them in?

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

who is the committee that votes them in?

Legends of Hockey - Induction Showcase - Selection Commitee

Couple of those (Davidson and Clarke) are new this year, which could change the results.

 

[mattola]

Legends of Hockey - Induction Showcase - Selection Commitee

Couple of those (Davidson and Clarke) are new this year, which could change the results.

holy crap that is quite a royalty of hockey in there.

 

[dash]

holy crap that is quite a royalty of hockey in there.

Can't have royalty without a couple of court jesters (and I see a couple).

 

[sabresfaninthesouth]

Late coach Burns headlines Hockey Hall of Fame class of 2014

Burns, Hasek, Forsberg, Modano, Blake.

EDIT: Bill McCreary goes in in the officials category.

 

[dash]

"Pat Burns should have been in the Hall of fame this year," former Stanley Cup-winning coach and incumbent Conservative Senator Jacques Demers said in 2010. "Not because he was dying, but because he was a Hall of Fame coach. Five hundred wins, a Stanley Cup, three times coach of the year - to me it would have been so special for him, before he died, to be in the Hall of fame."

You said it, Jacques. There wouldn't have been a dry eye in the place.

 

[Cobiemonster]

Congrats to those who made it!

 

[Rossinole]

Another year, another middle finger to Eric Lindros.

 

[pixburgher66]

The Burns thing grinds my gears. Everyone knew he was going to get in eventually...just peeves me that they didn't do this four years ago.