MJ Kobe Lebron?

[Mecca]

I can't believe that absurd party for the Heatles was all on LeBron. It's easier to just blame him. But the Heat organization deserves some criticism as well.

Agree.

But, the guy who gets the most credit always gets the most blame as well.

 

[trojanfan12]

I can't believe that absurd party for the Heatles was all on LeBron. It's easier to just blame him. But the Heat organization deserves some criticism as well.

No doubt. From what I understand, it was actually supposed to be private and for season ticket holders only or something along that line. I'm pretty sure @TurnUpTheHeat or one of the other Heat fans could give the full story.

But at the same time, I'm sure it wasn't a surprise party either or that he didn't know the decision to televise it had been made.

 

[tlance]

You gotta remember WHY people hold that against Lebron.

Most of it, @trojanfan12 already covered.

1. Who was the biggest name to make such a move before Lebron?

Maybe Shaq?

He joined a up and coming squad, not a Super Team.

2. The douchey ass TV specials...

The decision was bad. The not 1, 2,3...20 championships was worse.

3. That's really all we've got.

The people who still use the "he's not clutch, not a killer " argument , clearly haven't been paying attention to his career from his 2nd year in Miami till now.

That argument is obsolete. All any of us that want to justify ranking him lower than Magic, Michael, KAJ have left is his Finals record and team hoping.

We can't shit on the Finals record, unless we want to do the same with Wilt, Jerry West.

So, team hoping it is!!!!!

Oh, I totally get why he gets criticized.

I just don’t believe that he should. At least not the extent that he does.

When a player hits free agency, their only obligation is to do what is best for them and their families. LeBron has helped pave the way for current/future players to do just that. Of course some of his decisions were selfish. But honestly they should be.

 

[dtgold88]

they got rid of Kerr also. Krause made it clear he wanted to bring in all new players. Doubt Pip would have signed regardless so yeah it would have been years rebuilding. They still are by the way.

Let's see....Krause put together a team that won 55 games all with guys he acquired. Jackson put together the Knicks. Maybe Krause would know more than Phillip?

Kerr was a dime a dozen player at best. Perhaps if MJ and Phillip agreed to accept the challenge they keep Kerr? Though I suspect they could have found a better option if they wanted.

 

[rsw626]

I can't believe that absurd party for the Heatles was all on LeBron. It's easier to just blame him. But the Heat organization deserves some criticism as well.

Exactly. Also as far as “The Decision”, no doubt he should get blame for that but I’m sure it was more his agent and ESPN behind it.

 

[dtgold88]

lol

He was 35 when he retired. He had already been through other coaches, other systems and building a roster. He did that his first what? 7 years in the league?

Why the hell would anyone who had accomplished what he did, want to start all over at age 35 with a new coach, new system and a team full of kids and/or role players?

If the Bulls weren't going to bring everyone back on 1 year deals to try to get a 4th in a row, then everyone going their separate ways was the best outcome.

But Jackson then MJ begged out before they even found out if guys would come back on 1 year deals. Kind of funny the guys who have put together the Knicks and Charlotte wouldn't trust Krause.

 

[dtgold88]

Yeah.

Can’t knock MJ for retiring. And aside from this thread, nobody really does that.

By the same token, I don’t believe it is right to knock LeBron for changing teams. Yet many want to use that as some kind of excuse to not give him his due as an all time great player.

I don't really knock him for retiring. It's his choice. But clearly he would not accept the challenge that a little change might have created which kind of goes against the image many have of him.

 

[rsw626]

Let's see....Krause put together a team that won 55 games all with guys he acquired. Jackson put together the Knicks. Maybe Krause would know more than Phillip?

Kerr was a dime a dozen player at best. Perhaps if MJ and Phillip agreed to accept the challenge they keep Kerr? Though I suspect they could have found a better option if they wanted.

um no. After the 98 season, the bulls never won more than 30 games in a season while Krause was GM. He deserves full credit for building the dynasty, but equally deserves blame for the way it ended.

 

[trojanfan12]

But Jackson then MJ begged out before they even found out if guys would come back on 1 year deals. Kind of funny the guys who have put together the Knicks and Charlotte wouldn't trust Krause.

Uh, Phil coached 1998 on a 1 year deal. Jerry Krause told him that he could go 82-0 and he wouldn't be back. Then, he went out and announced to the media that it would be Phil's last season coaching the Bulls. He had Phil's eventual replacement sitting with him at games during that season.

So Phil didn't beg out of anything. In fact, Krause didn't want to bring him back for the 98 season. The only reason he did was because Reinsdorf wanted it.

MJ made it clear that he wouldn't play for any coach other than Phil. So Krause knew that if he didn't bring Phil back, MJ was gone too and he chose to do it anyway.

The whole reason the documentary was called The Last Dance was because that was what Phil called it because he knew no one was coming back.

 

[dtgold88]

Oh, I totally get why he gets criticized.

I just don’t believe that he should. At least not the extent that he does.

When a player hits free agency, their only obligation is to do what is best for them and their families. LeBron has helped pave the way for current/future players to do just that. Of course some of his decisions were selfish. But honestly they should be.

Right...and it's not like Lebron latched onto better players. He was always the best player. I've heard him called a ring chaser which is absurd. To me, ring chasers are the guys who come play with Lebron (or Kobe) late in their careers to try and get a ring.

 

[dtgold88]

um no. After the 98 season, the bulls never won more than 30 games in a season while Krause was GM. He deserves full credit for building the dynasty, but equally deserves blame for the way it ended.

Ok...but he also had a 55 win team with players all acquired by him. MJ and Phillip chose to leave. why should Krause get all the blame?

 

[Montalban]

My top 5


MJ
Magic
Kobe
Lebron
Wilt or Bird

Larry Bird
John Stockton
Bill Walton
Dirk Novitski
Jerry West

This team would be unbeatable

 

[dtgold88]

Uh, Phil coached 1998 on a 1 year deal. Jerry Krause told him that he could go 82-0 and he wouldn't be back. Then, he went out and announced to the media that it would be Phil's last season coaching the Bulls. He had Phil's eventual replacement sitting with him at games during that season.

So Phil didn't beg out of anything. In fact, Krause didn't want to bring him back for the 98 season. The only reason he did was because Reinsdorf wanted it.

MJ made it clear that he wouldn't play for any coach other than Phil. So Krause knew that if he didn't bring Phil back, MJ was gone too and he chose to do it anyway.

The whole reason the documentary was called The Last Dance was because that was what Phil called it because he knew no one was coming back.

Uh, yeah, I saw the documentary. Maybe Krause did not want him back but that guy who is Krause's boss did and asked Phil to stay. Phil, himself, said it was time to go.

are you saying Phillip and Reinsdorf lied?

Assuming they are not liars, yes, Phillip and MJ begged out of a challenge.

 

[trojanfan12]

Right...and it's not like Lebron latched onto better players. He was always the best player. I've heard him called a ring chaser which is absurd. To me, ring chasers are the guys who come play with Lebron (or Kobe) late in their careers to try and get a ring.

He was the best player in the league. Kind of hard for him to latch onto better players than him.

What he did do (and this isn't a criticism), was latch on to better players than he had on the team he left.

That is also where the "ring chaser" thing comes from. Instead of staying where he was and trying to win with what he had, or his team could put around him, he left to go to a better roster.

I'm not saying I agree with any of that, I don't. Just pointing out the logic behind that narrative.

 

[Wamu]

Exactly. Also as far as “The Decision”, no doubt he should get blame for that but I’m sure it was more his agent and ESPN behind it.

What disappointed me was he didn't hold his Decision in Akron. I really wanted to see my hometown riot.

 

[Wamu]

No doubt. From what I understand, it was actually supposed to be private and for season ticket holders only or something along that line. I'm pretty sure @TurnUpTheHeat or one of the other Heat fans could give the full story.

But at the same time, I'm sure it wasn't a surprise party either or that he didn't know the decision to televise it had been made.

You know who I blame for that dumbass celebration? Pat Riley. That's right.

 

[trojanfan12]

Uh, yeah, I saw the documentary. Maybe Krause did not want him back but that guy who is Krause's boss did and asked Phil to stay. Phil, himself, said it was time to go.

are you saying Phillip and Reinsdorf lied?

Assuming they are not liars, yes, Phillip and MJ begged out of a challenge.

That guy who is Krause's boss had him stay for the 98 season. He stayed out of it for the following season.

Also, while Phil said that it was time to go, he also said that he thought everyone would have signed a 1 year deal to stay except Scottie Pippen who was still pissed about the 6 year deal he signed.

But they were never asked.

 

[dtgold88]

He was the best player in the league. Kind of hard for him to latch onto better players than him.

What he did do (and this isn't a criticism), was latch on to better players than he had on the team he left.

That is also where the "ring chaser" thing comes from. Instead of staying where he was and trying to win with what he had, or his team could put around him, he left to go to a better roster.

I'm not saying I agree with any of that, I don't. Just pointing out the logic behind that narrative.

all true...a good counter to those people (which they, of course, ignore) is his last move. when Durant made his move to improve a 73 win team that looked unbeatable, Lebron countered by going somewhere there were no other superstars.

 

[Wamu]

Larry Bird
John Stockton
Bill Walton
Dirk Novitski
Jerry West

This team would be unbeatable

This team would beat them.

Magic
MJ
LeBron
Duncan
Olajuwon

 

[trojanfan12]

You know who I blame for that dumbass celebration? Pat Riley. That's right.

lol

Yeah, that's totally Riley's style. lol