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Alan Trammell and Jack Morris elected into HOF

navamind

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You say this when Ozzie had 76.5 career WAR and is widely considered to be the greatest defensive shortstop of all-time, if not the greatest defensive player period.

the biggest thing that annoys me about any Omar vs. Ozzie debate is that people assume their offensive contributions are equal... they really aren't. Going by rBat, Ozzie was worth -117 runs while Omar was worth -244. Ozzie had seven seasons where his bat was worth positive runs while Omar had only two seasons north of 0. Omar had thirteen seasons where his bat was worth -10 runs or less while Ozzie had eight. Neither were good, but I'd say Ozzie was considerably better and Omar had more seasons where he hurt his team offensively. Ozzie at least had two seasons where he was in the top 10 in his league in OBP. Omar had 0.

Then there's the matter of baserunning. Ozzie's baserunning was worth +79 runs. Omar was worth -1. They both stole a lot of bases, but Ozzie stole 176 more bases while getting caught 19 fewer times. Ozzie was successful on 80% of his stolen base attempts while Omar was successful 71% of the time. That's a pretty wide gap. Ozzie was also more successful at taking extra bases (53% vs. 42%).

Once you take those things into account, I really don't think those two are comparable. I think Ozzie was a far superior player. There's a lot more to look at than WAR, but I think WAR is pretty accurate in the large discrepancy between the two even if we assume their defense was equal.
 

msgkings322

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You say this when Ozzie had 76.5 career WAR and is widely considered to be the greatest defensive shortstop of all-time, if not the greatest defensive player period.

the biggest thing that annoys me about any Omar vs. Ozzie debate is that people assume their offensive contributions are equal... they really aren't. Going by rBat, Ozzie was worth -117 runs while Omar was worth -244. Ozzie had seven seasons where his bat was worth positive runs while Omar had only two seasons north of 0. Omar had thirteen seasons where his bat was worth -10 runs or less while Ozzie had eight. Neither were good, but I'd say Ozzie was considerably better and Omar had more seasons where he hurt his team offensively. Ozzie at least had two seasons where he was in the top 10 in his league in OBP. Omar had 0.

Then there's the matter of baserunning. Ozzie's baserunning was worth +79 runs. Omar was worth -1. They both stole a lot of bases, but Ozzie stole 176 more bases while getting caught 19 fewer times. Ozzie was successful on 80% of his stolen base attempts while Omar was successful 71% of the time. That's a pretty wide gap. Ozzie was also more successful at taking extra bases (53% vs. 42%).

Once you take those things into account, I really don't think those two are comparable. I think Ozzie was a far superior player. There's a lot more to look at than WAR, but I think WAR is pretty accurate in the large discrepancy between the two even if we assume their defense was equal.

I really wish Vizquel would make the Hall but you make a very good case. He's another close but no cigar player.
 

VikingFan2k2

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I feel like I have to stand up for Jack Morris in a room full of Tigers fans. It is pretty strange.

Jack got stuck between the old school guys who hate letting anyone in, and the new school guys who love their numbers above all else.

He won 3 titles (technically 4). Yes, he struggled late and his ERA is inflated because he held on too long (hell, I went to a game where he started for the St. Paul Saints in 96'), but the guy was an absolute horse for over a decade.

Ask yourselves this Tigers fans, how would the 80s have been without him on the mound?
 

soxfan1468927

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I feel like I have to stand up for Jack Morris in a room full of Tigers fans. It is pretty strange.

Jack got stuck between the old school guys who hate letting anyone in, and the new school guys who love their numbers above all else.

He won 3 titles (technically 4). Yes, he struggled late and his ERA is inflated because he held on too long (hell, I went to a game where he started for the St. Paul Saints in 96'), but the guy was an absolute horse for over a decade.

Ask yourselves this Tigers fans, how would the 80s have been without him on the mound?
Even if he retired at 37, he would have a 3.73 ERA and 109 ERA+ and if Jack Morris isn't on the Tigers in 1984 I think they still win the World Series. They won the division by 15 games, swept the ALCS, and won the World Series in 5.
 

StanMarsh51

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I feel like I have to stand up for Jack Morris in a room full of Tigers fans. It is pretty strange.

Jack got stuck between the old school guys who hate letting anyone in, and the new school guys who love their numbers above all else.

He won 3 titles (technically 4). Yes, he struggled late and his ERA is inflated because he held on too long (hell, I went to a game where he started for the St. Paul Saints in 96'), but the guy was an absolute horse for over a decade.

Ask yourselves this Tigers fans, how would the 80s have been without him on the mound?


Your ERA argument doesn't help Morris when you look deeper...

Only 5x in Morris' career did he crack the AL's top 10 in ERA, and never finished better than 5th....let's not act like he was a good/great ERA pitcher but the end of his career skewed it...

Looking at his ERA+ (which compares his ERA to league average), just 1x was his ERA+ at 130 or better (30% better than average) and 6x he was at 120 or better. Just to put that into perspective:

-David Cone had 6 seasons with an ERA+ of 130 or better
-Bret Saberhagen had 5 seasons of 130 or better
-Kevin Brown had 5 seasons of 130 or better
-Kevin Appier had 5 seasons of 130 or better
-Dave Steib had 5 seasons of 130 or better
-Tim Hudson had 4 seasons of 130 or better
-David Wells had 2 seasons of 130 or better
-Kenny Rogers had 3 seasons of 130 or better
-Bartolo Colon had 2 seasons of 130 or better

So none of these guys will ever sniff the HOF, but all were capable of putting up more seasons where their ERA was at least 30% than league average (guys like Cone, Saberhagen, Brown, Appier, Steib did it 5+ times each but Morris could only do this 1x).
 

DragonfromTO

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honestly, I think WAR is the worst thing to happen to the HOF... I am convinced that voters/veteran committee just look at who are the highest WAR and not in and just say they belong in...

neither player deserves in IMO... Morris is a JOKE...

I know, right? I bet the balloting here was just George Brett shoving a slide rule up Robin Yount's ass while Dave Winfield and Don Sutton calculated the depth. Those guys are all such misguided nerds :wink:
 

broncosmitty

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Your ERA argument doesn't help Morris when you look deeper...

Only 5x in Morris' career did he crack the AL's top 10 in ERA, and never finished better than 5th....let's not act like he was a good/great ERA pitcher but the end of his career skewed it...

Looking at his ERA+ (which compares his ERA to league average), just 1x was his ERA+ at 130 or better (30% better than average) and 6x he was at 120 or better. Just to put that into perspective:

-David Cone had 6 seasons with an ERA+ of 130 or better
-Bret Saberhagen had 5 seasons of 130 or better
-Kevin Brown had 5 seasons of 130 or better
-Kevin Appier had 5 seasons of 130 or better
-Dave Steib had 5 seasons of 130 or better
-Tim Hudson had 4 seasons of 130 or better
-David Wells had 2 seasons of 130 or better
-Kenny Rogers had 3 seasons of 130 or better
-Bartolo Colon had 2 seasons of 130 or better

So none of these guys will ever sniff the HOF, but all were capable of putting up more seasons where their ERA was at least 30% than league average (guys like Cone, Saberhagen, Brown, Appier, Steib did it 5+ times each but Morris could only do this 1x).
He doesn't need help.


There is no arguement.


He's in the HOF.
 

broncosmitty

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Why do you guys do this to yourselves?



Start your own Hall...
 

DragonfromTO

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Morris is in because he was money when all the marbles were at stake. He wouldn't get you to game 7, but he'd damn sure win it for you. Lolich was basically the same guy. Except he was a lefty. And he was fat.

Trammel and Whitaker both belong. Flawless in the middle, could set the table, and had good power for middle infielders in the days before everybody roided up.

The two games the Blue Jays lost in the '92 World Series were lost by Morris. I'm pretty sure that he took a loss in the ALCS that year too, although I don't know that for sure and don't want to bother looking it up.

He was so money that they didn't even give him the chance to do it again the next year, they just told him to stay home and gave him a ring.
 

soxfan1468927

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Why do you guys do this to yourselves?



Start your own Hall...
Why do we have conversations about the HOF? The same reason we all voluntarily come here to talk sports. Because we want to.
 

navamind

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"3x WS champ" implies that he played a role in 1993, the year where he had a 6+ ERA and didn't throw a single postseason pitch.
 

soxfan1468927

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"3x WS champ" implies that he played a role in 1993, the year where he had a 6+ ERA and didn't throw a single postseason pitch.
1984, 1991, and 1992.

So even without 1993 he is a 3-time champ
 

navamind

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Why do you guys do this to yourselves?



Start your own Hall...

Yeah, how dare we discuss a Hall of Fame selection on a sports message board.
 

navamind

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Not the discussion.



This is after the fact. He's in. You were wrong.

just because someone's put in the HOF doesn't mean they were deserving. I don't think Jim Rice should be anywhere near Cooperstown. and this discussion's been going on for decades... why stop just because he's in the HOF?
 

msgkings322

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just because someone's put in the HOF doesn't mean they were deserving. I don't think Jim Rice should be anywhere near Cooperstown. and this discussion's been going on for decades... why stop just because he's in the HOF?

Can't he visit? Or is there a restraining order situation?
 

Voltaire26

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just because someone's put in the HOF doesn't mean they were deserving. I don't think Jim Rice should be anywhere near Cooperstown. and this discussion's been going on for decades... why stop just because he's in the HOF?

Rice, Lynn and Evans were a pretty impressive outfield ... Rice is a good Hall of Fame choice
 
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