Will Lebron ever surpass Bird at the SF GOAT?

[tlance]

What rules though 80's or today?

Do you think 80s rules would help Bird here?

LeBron is bigger, faster and stronger. Allowing hand checking would help him, not Bird.

I think it is really funny when people claim that more physical play would somehow make LeBron less of a force. He is the most impressive physical specimen to ever lace em up. A hand check ain't stopping him from getting to the rim, but it might make his already elite on ball defense even better.

 

[flyerhawk]

Pretty much.

Right.

 

[Wamu]

When you come in and say "So you're saying that Bird couldn't shoot under pressure" which I never said, it sure looks like you are coming into to defend Bird.

I never said he would shut down Bird. Bird would score. Bird's biggest problem would be his inability to stop James, not his ability to score.

Go back & read that comment of mine you quoted & pay close attention this.... Not to be a smarts (too late, I already am) but what did you expect, maybe a disclaimer after the comment saying: sarcasm?

 

[trojanfan12]

The NBA was a helluva lot more physical back then. And w/ how great of a shit talker Bird was he might have been able to frustrate the hell outta him.

See, that's my theory too. Part of the reason I say "make it, take it and Bird gets the ball first" is because a big part of what made him successful was his ability to frustrate opponents and get them out their game. He'd be bringing the ball upcourt and telling the guy guarding him exactly where he was going to go on the floor and what shot he was going to hit. Then he'd do exactly what he said.

I've heard so many players from that era say the same thing about him. Used to drive Michael Cooper nuts and Coop probably had the best overall success guarding him. lol

 

[trojanfan12]

I don't take anonymous Internet debates seriously.

Your posts tell a different story.

 

[Wamu]

Do you think 80s rules would help Bird here?

LeBron is bigger, faster and stronger. Allowing hand checking would help him, not Bird.

I think it is really funny when people claim that more physical play would somehow make LeBron less of a force. He is the most impressive physical specimen to ever lace em up. A hand check ain't stopping him from getting to the rim, but it might make his already elite on ball defense even better.

Show me where I said anything about the rules of 80's helping Bird though. Maybe I should have been more specific. When I mentioned how the game was more physical I meant it in terms of Bird being use to playing that style. LeBron's a freak & I don't think that style of ball would effect him all that much. I was just asking a general question due to the different styles of play between then & today.

 

[Wamu]

See, that's my theory too. Part of the reason I say "make it, take it and Bird gets the ball first" is because a big part of what made him successful was his ability to frustrate opponents and get them out their game. He'd be bringing the ball upcourt and telling the guy guarding him exactly where he was going to go on the floor and what shot he was going to hit. Then he'd do exactly what he said.

I've heard so many players from that era say the same thing about him. Used to drive Michael Cooper nuts and Coop probably had the best overall success guarding him. lol

Please don't mention Coop or the Showtime Lakers. They give me a headache.

Celtics in seven!!! (hopefully someday soon)

 

[trojanfan12]

Do you think 80s rules would help Bird here?

LeBron is bigger, faster and stronger. Allowing hand checking would help him, not Bird.

I think it is really funny when people claim that more physical play would somehow make LeBron less of a force. He is the most impressive physical specimen to ever lace em up. A hand check ain't stopping him from getting to the rim, but it might make his already elite on ball defense even better.

To take this out of the hypothetical 1 on 1 matchup. I think people look at NBA players today as softer and that many of today's players, Lebron included, wouldn't be able to take the physical nature of the 80's and 90's (the 90's were actually more physical than the 80's) because they are not used to it.

If you were to take any of today's players and use a hot tub time machine to drop them into the 80's or 90's, then that argument would have some merit because they wouldn't have time to get used to it.

But, if you assume that a player like Lebron learned the game the way it was played back then, he would already be used to that style of play and would be as, or maybe more dominant because, with his build, he could add being physical to his arsenal.

 

[tlance]

To take this out of the hypothetical 1 on 1 matchup. I think people look at NBA players today as softer and that many of today's players, Lebron included, wouldn't be able to take the physical nature of the 80's and 90's (the 90's were actually more physical than the 80's) because they are not used to it.

If you were to take any of today's players and use a hot tub time machine to drop them into the 80's or 90's, then that argument would have some merit because they wouldn't have time to get used to it.

But, if you assume that a player like Lebron learned the game the way it was played back then, he would already be used to that style of play and would be as, or maybe more dominant because, with his build, he could add being physical to his arsenal.

In 5 on 5, it might affect LeBron negatively. Not 1 on 1.

It isn't the on ball guy who does the damage. It was the help defender who brings the clothes line. It literally requires 0 adjustment for LeBron to play with hand checking, because he grew up playing that way on the streets. Hand checking has always been part of pick up basketball games everywhere. This is not something he has to "learn". It is much harder to learn not to hand check.

 

[trojanfan12]

In 5 on 5, it might affect LeBron negatively. Not 1 on 1.

It isn't the on ball guy who does the damage. It was the help defender who brings the clothes line. It literally requires 0 adjustment for LeBron to play with hand checking, because he grew up playing that way on the streets. Hand checking has always been part of pick up basketball games everywhere. This is not something he has to "learn". It is much harder to learn not to hand check.

There was a lot more than handchecking and clotheslines going on in the 80's and 90's. There was also a lot of "bodying up" on guys, bumping guys off their spots, etc. that doesn't happen today either (at least not at the level it did then). Things that were taught as "good defense" in the 80's and 90's are against the rules today.

With Lebron's combination of size, strength and speed, I think that, in some ways, he might actually be better back then (as hard as it is to believe) because he could use all of the tools in his toolbox. It's kind of hard for him to use his strength (especially on defense) because he can't beat people up physically like you could back then.

Imagine him being allowed to play defense like Anthony Mason, Charles Oakley or Rick Mahorn.

 

[tlance]

There was a lot more than handchecking and clotheslines going on in the 80's and 90's. There was also a lot of "bodying up" on guys, bumping guys off their spots, etc. that doesn't happen today either (at least not at the level it did then). Things that were taught as "good defense" in the 80's and 90's are against the rules today.

With Lebron's combination of size, strength and speed, I think that, in some ways, he might actually be better back then (as hard as it is to believe) because he could use all of the tools in his toolbox. It's kind of hard for him to use his strength (especially on defense) because he can't beat people up physically like you could back then.

Imagine him being allowed to play defense like Anthony Mason, Charles Oakley or Rick Mahorn.

I agree with most of this. I actually think there is just as much body contact (maybe more) allowed today.

Some people think that every touch gets called in today's NBA. It just is not true. The rules today are more black and white as far as types of contact that are allowed and types that are not.

 

[tducey]

It's close but got to think Bird is still better than James. Another title or 2 for James probably will change that.

 

[GNG]

I'm no youngster but it's amusing how everyone thinks their childhood heroes were better than the kids today. Sorry dudes, LeBron is one of the top 3 all time players Bird is not.

Pistol Pete Maravich should be in the top 3 all time.

 

[Clayton]

I think this was really close before last year. I still gave Lebron the edge but it was close.

This isn't close anymore.

 

[larryjohn]

Almost got Magic vs. MJ game:

Jordan vs. Magic: The Greatest Game Never Played

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Do you think 80s rules would help Bird here?

LeBron is bigger, faster and stronger. Allowing hand checking would help him, not Bird.

I think it is really funny when people claim that more physical play would somehow make LeBron less of a force. He is the most impressive physical specimen to ever lace em up. A hand check ain't stopping him from getting to the rim, but it might make his already elite on ball defense even better.

Then you don't understand the purpose of hand checking.

 

[006]

 

[msgkings322]

It's close but got to think Bird is still better than James. Another title or 2 for James probably will change that.

This is inane. LeBron's skills and abilities won't change one bit if he wins 2 more rings or none. David Robinson won one ring. Did he need to win 2 more rings to be better than Ben Wallace? Is Rodman the Ringmaster better than Karl Malone, ringless?

 

[Shanemansj13]

Honestly, 1-on-1 is probably the biggest waste of time to argue. Like TLance said earlier, Jamal Crawford could be the best 1-on-1 player of all-time. The fact is, at this point in Lebron's career he is a greater player than Bird.

Who knows who would win 1-on-1, I'm sure each player would have their runs and have their stops. The fact is if Lebron plays bully ball he would get what he wants when he wants bc he is much more athletic and just stronger. It's just 1-on-1 is usually just taking contested jumpers and making tough shots bc driving to the hoop and making layups is boring lol.

 

[tlance]

Then you don't understand the purpose of hand checking.

No, I really do.

Derek Harper was one of the best hand checkers out there because he was physically stronger than the players he was guarding. He put his hand on them and was able to stop their momentum. A hand check from a Steve Kerr did not have the same affect.