What is going on with Rawls?

[DHoey]

Despite the limited number of carries there has to be a reason he has been a healthy scratch. Carroll just likes his other options more, maybe as the result of what he has observed in practice. It is a limited sample size, but his struggles go back to last year.

Carson was playing better at the time, plain and simple.

 

[Screamin12th]

Carson had 6 carries for a 6.5 average against the pack
20 carries for a 4.7 average the following week against the 49ers
11 carries against the Titans for a 3.1 average.
12 carries against the Colts for a 3.5 average.

Carson had the most success but most of that came week 2 and nothing really to exciting after. Losing him hurts because of his size he could fall forward and gain almost 2 yards. Still we need us a work horse guy and i think given enough touches Rawls will do ok. Nothing explosive but i don't think the best backs in the league would do much behind our line. Like say Hunt, behind our line he wouldn't even have a 4 YPC average. Fournette? Nope sub 4 just like Hunt. Our line just doesn't open many holes if any. I think i have seen a running lane twice this year so far haha.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Carson was playing better at the time, plain and simple.

And I wonder if that is the product of a decline by Rawls. Prior to the injuries, he looked amazing on tape IMO. Since then I haven't seen that same spark by him, regardless of the offensive line. Hawks offensive line was poor at run blocking his rookie year even, you can argue that it may have been better, but it would be to a marginal degree at best. Lynch had terrible run blocking as well, that's what made him so amazing IMO.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Carson had 6 carries for a 6.5 average against the pack
20 carries for a 4.7 average the following week against the 49ers
11 carries against the Titans for a 3.1 average.
12 carries against the Colts for a 3.5 average.

Carson had the most success but most of that came week 2 and nothing really to exciting after. Losing him hurts because of his size he could fall forward and gain almost 2 yards. Still we need us a work horse guy and i think given enough touches Rawls will do ok. Nothing explosive but i don't think the best backs in the league would do much behind our line. Like say Hunt, behind our line he wouldn't even have a 4 YPC average. Fournette? Nope sub 4 just like Hunt. Our line just doesn't open many holes if any. I think i have seen a running lane twice this year so far haha.

Part of the praise for Carson comes because he had a number of yards after contact. His high YPC against the 49ers was primarily the result of him gaining most of his yardage in the 4th quarter when the 49ers defense was clearly gassed.

 

[Screamin12th]

Part of the praise for Carson comes because he had a number of yards after contact. His high YPC against the 49ers was primarily the result of him gaining most of his yardage in the 4th quarter when the 49ers defense was clearly gassed.

Oh don't get me wrong i was all on board the Carson train, had been since we drafted him. Go check my post where i said Lacy was going to lose out to Carson even before they played a single preseason game. Thing is we could have the worlds greatest RB behind this line and he would just look average. Well maybe a little above average :P

Our RB crew really as a whole including Carson has not showed us anything and i just believe that has the most to do with the line.

Another poster was talking about Rawls. Anyone see his long run last year where he was limping at the end of it. Ever since he broke his ankle and lets not forget there was NERVE DAMAGE! he has a little limp and he doesn't explode into contact like he use to. Do the Hawks need to use a 2nd ( oops dont have one ) a 3rd round pick on a RB next season? Do they use a late First to grab one?

Seems like they might have to find that "DURABLE" RB next offseason. Carson breaking his leg was crappy and lets call a spade a spade, That defender pulled off a dick move by folding him back like that when he could see his team mate laying on Carsons legs. Thing is does this point to Carson maybe having Injury issues also? Rawls broken ankle was almost the same way.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Oh don't get me wrong i was all on board the Carson train, had been since we drafted him. Go check my post where i said Lacy was going to lose out to Carson even before they played a single preseason game. Thing is we could have the worlds greatest RB behind this line and he would just look average. Well maybe a little above average :P

Our RB crew really as a whole including Carson has not showed us anything and i just believe that has the most to do with the line.

Another poster was talking about Rawls. Anyone see his long run last year where he was limping at the end of it. Ever since he broke his ankle and lets not forget there was NERVE DAMAGE! he has a little limp and he doesn't explode into contact like he use to. Do the Hawks need to use a 2nd ( oops dont have one ) a 3rd round pick on a RB next season? Do they use a late First to grab one?

Seems like they might have to find that "DURABLE" RB next offseason. Carson breaking his leg was crappy and lets call a spade a spade, That defender pulled off a dick move by folding him back like that when he could see his team mate laying on Carsons legs.

I think one of the issues is that we need continuity with the reps. As a running back I believe you need a few consistent carries before you can really get rolling. Frequently you need to get a feel for which gaps the defense is susceptible to crashing.

Your other point is why I wonder if he has that explosiveness he had in that video I posted. Rawls used to be able to explode through the line and use his legs to push through tackles for a few extra yards. I wonder if he's able to drive off that ankle anymore.

I'm also really curious about Lacy's conditioning. Last year he ran behind a much better offensive line, but despite being out of shape he was still able to put up respectable numbers and earn a number of yards after contact. It really sucks for the front office because Rawls has shown a lot to love. Minus the drops, Prosise has looked like he could be an explosive 3rd down threat both out of the backfield and put in motion out wide or in the slot.

Obviously I'd like them to address the offensive line first, but seeing how poor the line is I'd like to see them draft an H-back type who can offer a threat out of the backfield as a receiver and be able to run block from a 2-back set or on third downs in pass protection.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Another thing I'm wondering is if Carson was more willing/able to pick up blitzes in pass protection. With how poor the offensive line has been, I have to think that maybe he got a bunch of reps because perhaps Lacy and Rawls were either missing blocks or getting beat in pass protection.

 

[Screamin12th]

I think one of the issues is that we need continuity with the reps. As a running back I believe you need a few consistent carries before you can really get rolling. Frequently you need to get a feel for which gaps the defense is susceptible to crashing.

Your other point is why I wonder if he has that explosiveness he had in that video I posted. Rawls used to be able to explode through the line and use his legs to push through tackles for a few extra yards. I wonder if he's able to drive off that ankle anymore.

I'm also really curious about Lacy's conditioning. Last year he ran behind a much better offensive line, but despite being out of shape he was still able to put up respectable numbers and earn a number of yards after contact. It really sucks for the front office because Rawls has shown a lot to love. Minus the drops, Prosise has looked like he could be an explosive 3rd down threat both out of the backfield and put in motion out wide or in the slot.

Obviously I'd like them to address the offensive line first, but seeing how poor the line is I'd like to see them draft an H-back type who can offer a threat out of the backfield as a receiver and be able to run block from a 2-back set or on third downs in pass protection.

Well there is no doubt they have to pick up Oline help. In my eyes they need two tackles a left and a right. Good luck with that . Move Ifedi Back to Guard to compete with Pocic, Put Glowinski ( Yuck ) in a battle for the LG side and cross your fingers. I hope to god they have Pocic ALWAYS working out at RT, i believe he has enough talent to be better than our other options there if given the time to learn that spot at the NFL level. I don't think he is ready to play yet though, wouldn't mind seeing him though to see how or where he is at in his development. Thankfully our crappy line is young very young and maybe they improve but damn it i wish for that every year ...It's like saying maybe i will win the lotto tomorrow...I need to be more realistic and i think i have settled into that area fully now. Line sucks, needs help, Cable doesn't help them grow, rinse and repeat every year.

I always thought Lacy was a product of the team around him. When he was on the Packers i always said his best season would have been a bigger season for Starks if he had those touches. I watched a lot of their games and always thought James Starks was the better more talented RB. Didn't mind picking Lacy up i just thought he wouldn't do anything behind our line because he is just to slow.

As it sits i believe the Hawks have one 1st rounder, no 2nd rounder, a 3rd, 4th, 5th and a believe 3 or 4 7th rounders. 1,3,4,5,7,7,7,7? I also don't think the Hawks will get any 3rd round comps this next season either.

 

[jakedog56]

Graham's $9 million would have been better spent on the OL and it wouldn't have hurt the passing too much.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Well there is no doubt they have to pick up Oline help. In my eyes they need two tackles a left and a right. Good luck with that . Move Ifedi Back to Guard to compete with Pocic, Put Glowinski ( Yuck ) in a battle for the LG side and cross your fingers. I hope to god they have Pocic ALWAYS working out at RT, i believe he has enough talent to be better than our other options there if given the time to learn that spot at the NFL level. I don't think he is ready to play yet though, wouldn't mind seeing him though to see how or where he is at in his development. Thankfully our crappy line is young very young and maybe they improve but damn it i wish for that every year ...It's like saying maybe i will win the lotto tomorrow...I need to be more realistic and i think i have settled into that area fully now. Line sucks, needs help, Cable doesn't help them grow, rinse and repeat every year.

I always thought Lacy was a product of the team around him. When he was on the Packers i always said his best season would have been a bigger season for Starks if he had those touches. I watched a lot of their games and always thought James Starks was the better more talented RB. Didn't mind picking Lacy up i just thought he wouldn't do anything behind our line because he is just to slow.

As it sits i believe the Hawks have one 1st rounder, no 2nd rounder, a 3rd, 4th, 5th and a believe 3 or 4 7th rounders. 1,3,4,5,7,7,7,7? I also don't think the Hawks will get any 3rd round comps this next season either.

I think you bring up some good points my man. I completely agree we need 4 new offensive linemen. I liked what I saw about Pocic when he was drafted, but have to assume that he hasn't performed well enough to warrant starting consideration yet, which is alarming given the starters we currently have. I have hope for Procic similar to you, but I wonder if perhaps the movement from center to G or T isn't something he is capable of? He has the size and pass blocking credentials to warrant a look at tackle, but I have to assume he doesn't have the ability to block an NFL speed rush. He didn't play much at tackle with LSU and he may be outmatched by NFL speed on edge rushers. Playing center is vastly different than tackle or guard, as we can see by Britt's success at center versus tackle. If Procic hasn't been able to compete his way on to this offensive line, that worries me.

I'm not sure if I'd ever want to see Ifedi take another snap. He was a terrible pick when we selected him and has not shown anything even remotely indicating he has any potential to be an NFL player. Joeckel has been as mediocre as he was with the Jaguars. I can't believe we're paying $8m for him. Cable's comments that Joeckel was one of the best guards in the NFL last year is one of the reasons I'm losing in faith in his ability to coach, that was just a ridiculous statement. Joeckel is up there with Rubin, Harvin and Cary Williams in the dumbest contracts given out by this front office.

I no longer trust this team to identity offensive line talent. If I'm correct, Russell Okung is the only offensive lineman this team has drafted that was a successful NFL player. The only other one (Max Unger) was drafted by Tim Ruskell.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Graham's $9 million would have been better spent on the OL and it wouldn't have hurt the passing too much.

We spent $8m on Joeckel. Who has been as mediocre as he was with the Jags.

T.J. Lang picked the Lions over us because their contract offer was more attractive. 3 years $28m with $19m guaranteed.

His cap hit in 2017: $5.9m
His cap hit in 2018: $10.9m
His cap hit in 2019: $11.6m

He's still playing at an elite level right now. If he somehow sucks in 2018, you can cut him in 2019 and the cap savings are $9m.

Essentially the Lions are paying $9.25m per year (including the cost incurred if cut before 2019) for 2017 and 2018 for elite production.

We're paying $8m for Luke fucking Joeckel.

 

[Screamin12th]

Yes we are over paying for Joeckel but i can't imagine just how bad would the Oline be with out him, wont have to shortly as we will see after the bye for a week or three.

I would rather have Joeckel who turns only 26 in November than Glowinski playing LG and it's not even close. I think a lot of people forget just how young Joeckel is. Over paid yes but he is easily the best Guard on the team right now even though that is truly sad. It just goes to show you how bad it really is up front for the Hawks. I never understood why they didn't use him as the RT, i bet you he is way better than Ifeidi at RT lol. That's not saying much once again though.

 

[jakedog56]

We spent $8m on Joeckel. Who has been as mediocre as he was with the Jags.

T.J. Lang picked the Lions over us because their contract offer was more attractive. 3 years $28m with $19m guaranteed.

His cap hit in 2017: $5.9m
His cap hit in 2018: $10.9m
His cap hit in 2019: $11.6m

He's still playing at an elite level right now. If he somehow sucks in 2018, you can cut him in 2019 and the cap savings are $9m.

Essentially the Lions are paying $9.25m per year (including the cost incurred if cut before 2019) for 2017 and 2018 for elite production.

We're paying $8m for Luke fucking Joeckel.

Joeckel doesn't seem to be the best decision thus far but it is a seperate issue from the additional $9 million we could have spent by offloading Graham.
Don't forget Witworth with the Rams. He is a good LT that we didn't pursue.

 

[JMR]

I see see you got the memo.
By all means, a lot of effort has gone into the OL lately. We have not yet seen the results we hope for.

Concur. So how long do we think it takes to grow a line? We've got some fairly early round draft picks invested, as well as free agent dollars, and some think we already need to scrap this one and start over. Blowing it up seemingly every single year is a huge part of the problem, in my opinion. Giving up on 1st/3rd round picks after 1 season is not something good franchises do.

I know someone's response will be "well, it's been X years and it still sucks!" but I don't know what that has to do with the 2017 OL when 4 of the 5 starters weren't even on the team prior to 2016.

 

[JMR]

And on the topic of OL, wondering what everyone here thinks -- 5 games in -- what the impact of losing Fant has been. Are we better, worse, or about the same as we would be with him?

I wanted to believe his off-season work was going to turn him into a legit LT or at least give him a boost from where he was last year, and then when he went down I wanted to believe Odhiambo would be able to come in and be serviceable. My gut says we are probably about where we would be either way. Rees has been "ok" most of the time, in my opinion, and then pretty bad some of the time.

And fast forward to 2018 -- does Fant come in as the incumbent LT starter, or does he need to win it back from Odhiambo, or is it going be an open competition from a dead stop?

 

[Screamin12th]

And on the topic of OL, wondering what everyone here thinks -- 5 games in -- what the impact of losing Fant has been. Are we better, worse, or about the same as we would be with him?

I wanted to believe his off-season work was going to turn him into a legit LT or at least give him a boost from where he was last year, and then when he went down I wanted to believe Odhiambo would be able to come in and be serviceable. My gut says we are probably about where we would be either way. Rees has been "ok" most of the time, in my opinion, and then pretty bad some of the time.

And fast forward to 2018 -- does Fant come in as the incumbent LT starter, or does he need to win it back from Odhiambo, or is it going be an open competition from a dead stop?

The Team was RAVING about Fant this offseason but.... they seem to do that about one or two of them every offseason. I think Fant would have been better than Rees but not a lot better. I believe the talent we got would be ok if they had someone who could teach these guys. I just don't think Cable is the right man here and he has not shown he can coach these guys up. They have spent a lot of capital on the oline, i have stated that in many of my posts but they have just sucked and every year it tends to get worse. The line has changed almost constantly the past 3 years but there is a constant that has not, that constant has to be the issue. I mean it really has to be from the prolonged failure we have seen doesn't it? Or do all these guys just suck period? I don't think thats it, the Hawks were SO CLOSE to getting rid of Britt now look he is our best Olineman.

I used "I" a lot in this post because these are my opinions and wanted to make that clear :P "I" could be completely wrong about Cable but "I" don't think so

 

[Uhsplit]

Concur. So how long do we think it takes to grow a line? We've got some fairly early round draft picks invested, as well as free agent dollars, and some think we already need to scrap this one and start over. Blowing it up seemingly every single year is a huge part of the problem, in my opinion. Giving up on 1st/3rd round picks after 1 season is not something good franchises do.

I know someone's response will be "well, it's been X years and it still sucks!" but I don't know what that has to do with the 2017 OL when 4 of the 5 starters weren't even on the team prior to 2016.

We (all of us) have no idea but I remember coach Knox saying it took 3 years to develop offensive linemen.

 

[Screamin12th]

We (all of us) have no idea but I remember coach Knox saying it took 3 years to develop offensive linemen.

I remember something like that but i think it was Konx saying it takes 2-3 years to know what you really got from a Olineman. If they are good or bad or average. If i remember right it was the Season Warner blew up his knee. No maybe it wasn't then...88 when things started going bad? 89 hermmm i do believe it was either 88-89 my bad.

 

[JMR]

2 or 3 years....seems about right. How much you have invested in the player makes a difference as well. A 1st round pick is going to get a longer look than a 7th rounder with all other things being equal, just the reality.

So if you're someone who agrees with the 2/3 year timeline, does that mean you're giving Odhiambo and Ifedi some leeway until at least this time next year? Odhiambo has started only 5 games in his career, Ifedi just over a full season (but at 2 different positions).

 

[chf]

The brain trust around here wanted to trade Britt for some used sweat-socks a while back. So I'm going to reserve judgment on the 'plan' in here now too.