• Have something to say? Register Now! and be posting in minutes!

WAR

navamind

Well-Known Member
21,578
4,972
293
Joined
May 15, 2012
Location
NJ
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3

calsnowskier

Sarcastic F-wad
59,133
15,584
1,033
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Location
San Diego
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,400.09
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.
 

MilkSpiller22

Gorilla
33,626
6,376
533
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 89,217.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
I am up for an actual WAR debate...

I am not a big fan of it... I do use it as a quick glance, especially WAR7...
 

calsnowskier

Sarcastic F-wad
59,133
15,584
1,033
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Location
San Diego
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,400.09
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
I am up for an actual WAR debate...

I am not a big fan of it... I do use it as a quick glance, especially WAR7...
I like WAR7 a lot. It basically ignores the Brady Anderson season as well as the Ricky Henderson tack on seasons just because he loved the game.
 

MilkSpiller22

Gorilla
33,626
6,376
533
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 89,217.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
I like WAR7 a lot. It basically ignores the Brady Anderson season as well as the Ricky Henderson tack on seasons just because he loved the game.


Again, I am not a WAR guy, but WAR7 I like, just because as you said it ignores compilers and the one hit wonders while telling you who was actually great... and it really is the ONLY stat out there that only focuses on your best seasons...

The only thing that would be better than WAR7 is a weighted WAR... cause I will ask you, who do you think is better, a player who had 5 HOF caliber seasons but only that, the rest of his career he was average, or a player who was great but never special for 7 seasons...

The WAR likes consistency too much IMO...
 

navamind

Well-Known Member
21,578
4,972
293
Joined
May 15, 2012
Location
NJ
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Again, I am not a WAR guy, but WAR7 I like, just because as you said it ignores compilers and the one hit wonders while telling you who was actually great... and it really is the ONLY stat out there that only focuses on your best seasons...

The only thing that would be better than WAR7 is a weighted WAR... cause I will ask you, who do you think is better, a player who had 5 HOF caliber seasons but only that, the rest of his career he was average, or a player who was great but never special for 7 seasons...

The WAR likes consistency too much IMO...

that's why it's better to look at WAR7, JAWS and WAA.

That's the primary reason I'm against Vizquel... I just don't think he was anything more than above average. He only has 5 WAA (not sure what the average is for HOFers, but I'm guessing it's probably closer to 35-40). Only one season with more than 4 WAR (6 in 1999). And while his WAA is dragged down by playing forever, even if you take out his 8 seasons he still has only 10 WAA. Seems to me like Concepcion with a longer career and a better glove, but worse bat.
 

soxfan1468927

Well-Known Member
7,001
978
113
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Location
603
Hoopla Cash
$ 7,185.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
that's why it's better to look at WAR7, JAWS and WAA.

That's the primary reason I'm against Vizquel... I just don't think he was anything more than above average. He only has 5 WAA (not sure what the average is for HOFers, but I'm guessing it's probably closer to 35-40). Only one season with more than 4 WAR (6 in 1999). And while his WAA is dragged down by playing forever, even if you take out his 8 seasons he still has only 10 WAA. Seems to me like Concepcion with a longer career and a better glove, but worse bat.
Omar Vizquel's WAR7 is lower than Orlando Hudson's.
 

MilkSpiller22

Gorilla
33,626
6,376
533
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 89,217.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
that's why it's better to look at WAR7, JAWS and WAA.

That's the primary reason I'm against Vizquel... I just don't think he was anything more than above average. He only has 5 WAA (not sure what the average is for HOFers, but I'm guessing it's probably closer to 35-40). Only one season with more than 4 WAR (6 in 1999). And while his WAA is dragged down by playing forever, even if you take out his 8 seasons he still has only 10 WAA. Seems to me like Concepcion with a longer career and a better glove, but worse bat.


I like to use different measurements for different type of players... very hard comparing a defensive first player to an offensive first player(not saying you did that- just emphasizing why I like to measure differently)... But because I do that, I don't weigh offense as heavily for a defensive first player...

Not saying Vizquel is a HOFer, as I really am on the fence with him, but I don't really penalize him for his mediocre offense, I think his offense was good enough NOT to hurt your team... which may be just enough...
 

navamind

Well-Known Member
21,578
4,972
293
Joined
May 15, 2012
Location
NJ
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Omar Vizquel's WAR7 is lower than Orlando Hudson's.

I didn't think there was a baseball player more overrated than Jack Morris, but Vizquel might dethrone him.
 

soxfan1468927

Well-Known Member
7,001
978
113
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Location
603
Hoopla Cash
$ 7,185.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Of the players on the HOF ballot this year, here's the list of players whose JAWS is higher than the positional average of all the players in the HOF at their position.

1. Bonds: +64.3 above average
2. Clemens: +41.2
3. Chipper: +10.6
4. Thome: +2.6
5. Schilling: +2.4
6. Mussina: +1.7
7. Rolen: +1.6
8. Manny: +1.3
9. Edgar: +0.8
10. Walker: +0.5
 

soxfan1468927

Well-Known Member
7,001
978
113
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Location
603
Hoopla Cash
$ 7,185.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
I like to use different measurements for different type of players... very hard comparing a defensive first player to an offensive first player(not saying you did that- just emphasizing why I like to measure differently)... But because I do that, I don't weigh offense as heavily for a defensive first player...

Not saying Vizquel is a HOFer, as I really am on the fence with him, but I don't really penalize him for his mediocre offense, I think his offense was good enough NOT to hurt your team... which may be just enough...
Most years he was below average at his position offensively. But yes, overall Vizquel was above replacement level in terms of value. That's hardly much of a HOF qualifier.
 

richig07

Well-Known Member
14,809
3,084
293
Joined
Jul 11, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 200.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
I am up for an actual WAR debate...

I am not a big fan of it... I do use it as a quick glance, especially WAR7...

WAR is just a rumor, it doesn't actually exist. It's all hearsay.

These people just pick players they like, and throw a bunch of numbers into a computer that says they're good.
 

Cedrique

Well-Known Member
18,196
4,472
293
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 950.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Of the players on the HOF ballot this year, here's the list of players whose JAWS is higher than the positional average of all the players in the HOF at their position.

1. Bonds: +64.3 above average
2. Clemens: +41.2
3. Chipper: +10.6
4. Thome: +2.6
5. Schilling: +2.4
6. Mussina: +1.7
7. Rolen: +1.6
8. Manny: +1.3
9. Edgar: +0.8
10. Walker: +0.5
One thing I noticed is Edgar is listed as a 3B. He really only played about 3.5 seasons at third and was a much better hitter at DH. It seems like he should be listed as a first baseman or something. On the other hand, I think the positions are already baked into the WAR calculation so maybe if we're using JAWS we shouldn't differentiate their JAWS in relation to hall of famers at their position but just hall of famers in general. (if that makes sense)
 

soxfan1468927

Well-Known Member
7,001
978
113
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Location
603
Hoopla Cash
$ 7,185.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
One thing I noticed is Edgar is listed as a 3B. He really only played about 3.5 seasons at third and was a much better hitter at DH. It seems like he should be listed as a first baseman or something. On the other hand, I think the positions are already baked into the WAR calculation so maybe if we're using JAWS we shouldn't differentiate their JAWS in relation to hall of famers at their position but just hall of famers in general. (if that makes sense)
Yes he is listed as a 3rd baseman, but actually the average JAWS of 1st basemen is lower than the average JAWS of 3rd basemen in the HOF. So he would come off better at that comparison.

Yes, you are right, but this was more showing how the voters have voted in the past.
 

Cedrique

Well-Known Member
18,196
4,472
293
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 950.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Yes he is listed as a 3rd baseman, but actually the average JAWS of 1st basemen is lower than the average JAWS of 3rd basemen in the HOF. So he would come off better at that comparison.

Yes, you are right, but this was more showing how the voters have voted in the past.
Yeah, I thought there was a big difference but I was looking at the WAR7 column in some positions and the JAWS column in others. They are really fairly close, which makes sense. Plus if they are using WAR and not oWAR then the defense (or lack of defense) would already be included.
 

Cedrique

Well-Known Member
18,196
4,472
293
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 950.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
So long story short, I'm all in on Edgar now. In fact, it's an absolute travesty he is not there already!
 

MilkSpiller22

Gorilla
33,626
6,376
533
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 89,217.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Of the players on the HOF ballot this year, here's the list of players whose JAWS is higher than the positional average of all the players in the HOF at their position.

1. Bonds: +64.3 above average
2. Clemens: +41.2
3. Chipper: +10.6
4. Thome: +2.6
5. Schilling: +2.4
6. Mussina: +1.7
7. Rolen: +1.6
8. Manny: +1.3
9. Edgar: +0.8
10. Walker: +0.5


Not going to check them all, but just checked Thome... He is -1.2 in WAR7... Sure helps your JAWS when you have the 7th highest PA of all 1B...
 

Similar threads

Top