Top 32 tournament SS Davis vs Vizquel

[obxyankeefan]

Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

Shortstop Bracket is:

1 H Wagner 8
32 N Garciaparra 0

16 PW Reese 3
17 L Boudreau 6

8 B Dahlen 8
25 A Fletcher 1

9 L Appling 8
24 D Bancroft 0

4 G Davis
29 O Vizquel

13 B Larkin
20 J Sewell

5 R Yount
28 V Stephens

12 A Trammell
21 J Tinker

3 C Ripken JR
30 T Fernandez

14 E Banks
19 L Aparicio

6 O Smith
27 J Rollins

11 D Jeter
22 B Campaneris

2 A Rodriguez
31 R Peckinpaugh

15 J Cronin
18 J Glasscock

7 B Wallace
26 M Tejada

10 A Vaughan
23 J Fregosi

1 H Wagner
17 L Boudreau

8 B Dahlen
9 L Appling

 

[obxyankeefan]

George Davis Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

Omar Vizquel Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Most difficult 29 vs 4 that I could imagine... A pre 1900 player vs a modern day defensive specialist...

both players dWAR are great, so I will assume that George Davis was at least a very good defensive player...

Honestly, this one is difficult... As hard as it to trust pre 1900 stats, and it is obvious that his best statistical seasons were all before 1900...

I wish Visquel was a better offensive player to make this easy, but visquel was an average offensive bat at best... It looks like George davis was at least above average for his time... So I really don't know... I feel like this is a coin toss... So I will get back to you guys when I get a coin...

 

[calsnowskier]

Most difficult 29 vs 4 that I could imagine... A pre 1900 player vs a modern day defensive specialist...

both players dWAR are great, so I will assume that George Davis was at least a very good defensive player...

Honestly, this one is difficult... As hard as it to trust pre 1900 stats, and it is obvious that his best statistical seasons were all before 1900...

I wish Visquel was a better offensive player to make this easy, but visquel was an average offensive bat at best... It looks like George davis was at least above average for his time... So I really don't know... I feel like this is a coin toss... So I will get back to you guys when I get a coin...

How did they determine Davis' dWAR, though? Did they analyze the footage?

Once I saw the years Davis played in, I voted. Sorry, I simply do not trust anything from that era. It may be unfair, but the records are just bunk, IMHO...

 

[obxyankeefan]

How did they determine Davis' dWAR, though? Did they analyze the footage?

Once I saw the years Davis played in, I voted. Sorry, I simply do not trust anything from that era. It may be unfair, but the records are just bunk, IMHO...

I will trust the offensive stats from that ERA a lot more than I would the defensive stats. I still don't think they have a defensive stat that measures today's players correctly, so how are you going to measure someone who played 100+ years ago?

 

[calsnowskier]

I was just about to change my vote to Davis since he played for the Giants, then I realized we are still dealing with Omar, so that cancels out.

 

[Wamu]

Most difficult 29 vs 4 that I could imagine... A pre 1900 player vs a modern day defensive specialist...

both players dWAR are great, so I will assume that George Davis was at least a very good defensive player...

Honestly, this one is difficult... As hard as it to trust pre 1900 stats, and it is obvious that his best statistical seasons were all before 1900...

I wish Visquel was a better offensive player to make this easy, but visquel was an average offensive bat at best... It looks like George davis was at least above average for his time... So I really don't know... I feel like this is a coin toss... So I will get back to you guys when I get a coin...

Omar made up for his lack of offensive productivity w/ his excellent defensive play.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

How did they determine Davis' dWAR, though? Did they analyze the footage?

Once I saw the years Davis played in, I voted. Sorry, I simply do not trust anything from that era. It may be unfair, but the records are just bunk, IMHO...

I think it was more of a question whether he was good defensively or not, and then they just put in random numbers that backed it up... so I do think Davis was a good defenseman. but how good, that I have no clue...

But it is weird how we give some players a boost for playing in this time while others we just condemn...

Still debating on my pick, but I am leaning towards Davis right now, solely because I think he was good enough defensively and he definitely seems to be an above average at bat for his time, while Visquel was nothing on the offensive side...

 

[navamind]

Meh. I think Vizquel's pretty overrated.

 

[Wamu]

Meh. I think Vizquel's pretty overrated.

Not defensively.

 

[navamind]

Not defensively.

No, Vizquel was a helluva defender. But I think he's overrated in that people think he's comparable to Smith overall, if not better. I think Smith had more offensive value, especially when you consider the offensive standards of the shortstop position in his era and the eras they played in. Their careers intertwined, but Ozzie retired in 96, while Vizquel came up in 89 and played the majority of his career in a very hitter friendly run environment. And while Vizquel stole bases, his success rate wasn't very good (71%), while Ozzie had a career rate of 80%. Ozzie had 580 stolen bases to Omar's 407, and got caught fewer times (148 to 167).

Total Zones also gives Ozzie a huge advantage defensively (+239 to Omar's +128).

WAR gives Ozzie a huge advantage (76.5 to 45.3).

 

[Sgt Brutus]

 

[DragonfromTO]

How did they determine Davis' dWAR, though? Did they analyze the footage?

Once I saw the years Davis played in, I voted. Sorry, I simply do not trust anything from that era. It may be unfair, but the records are just bunk, IMHO...

I believe that they use Total Zone Rating estimates for the seasons without detailed play by play information (or still living eyeballs for that matter)

 

[DragonfromTO]

I think it was more of a question whether he was good defensively or not, and then they just put in random numbers that backed it up... so I do think Davis was a good defenseman. but how good, that I have no clue...

But it is weird how we give some players a boost for playing in this time while others we just condemn...

Still debating on my pick, but I am leaning towards Davis right now, solely because I think he was good enough defensively and he definitely seems to be an above average at bat for his time, while Visquel was nothing on the offensive side...

Jesus Christ man, is that really what you think the process is?