The Deal, Cavs-Celts, winners, losers

[The Q]

You cannot be taking yourself serious with a post that suggests Amir was a big loss. I suggest Broccoli for u

Amir and Crowder were easily their 2 best players according to RPM.

The celtics lost two of their best defenders from an already mediocre D.

This team is going to really struggle defensively.

 

[tlance]

The Miami Heat in '03 had a 42-win team and traded off promising pieces highlighted by Caron Butler and Lamar Odom for Shaq.

The thing is, the Celtics had a ton of above average to good players on its roster. Adding star players is better given that those aforementioned above average to good players were on contracts that were nearing their end and they were about to get a contract that fits todays NBA cap. Avery Bradley's likely going to make $20 mil per on his next contract, or somewhere in that neighborhood depending on what the market dictates.

Hayward is a significant upgrade from what the C's were bringing out on the wing and Irving's on a cap friendly deal given his talent and is a marginal upgrade over IT.

I agree that the Celtics had reached their ceiling with the IT/Bradley let core.

But, they have taken that Brooklyn pick that could be a franchise player and deal it for a core with a slightly higher ceiling. Kyrie and Hayward are tier 3 stars. Both good enough to be your second best guy if the first is somebody like LeBron. When they are 1-2, your ceiling still isn't high enough to win a championship. The Celtics are basically relying on either Tatum or Brown becoming a legit future superstar (or hitting big with that Lakers pick next year).

Or, they are relying on the superteam era ending so that they can have a shot with their Billups Piston like core.

 

[LAD]

I still think the Cavs won this deal, if healthy Thomas is better than Irving. We'll see how it pans out.

I think the only think IT is better at than Kyrie is passing the ball.

 

[LAD]

Winners:

1. Cavs: the Celtics bid against themselves here.

2. Koby Altman: a 34 year old GM took over and he got way more for a disgruntled player than anyone imagined.

3. Celtics long term prospects: Kyrie and Hayward is a nice tag team in the East once LeBron retires/leaves.

4. Jae Crowder- goes from being a bench player on a solid ECF team to a major cog in the best team in the East.

Losers:

1. Irving: Leaves LeBron James and a team that has been to 3 straight Finals to a team that has less than a punchers chance at beating the Cavs- waived his trade kicker as well. And with Hayward in town he isnt even the clear-cut "man" that he wanted to be.

2. Isiah Thomas' free agent value: not good to see your injury woes played out in the public eye due to "reports" that were probably leaked by the Celtics- the team you just played your ass off for and recruited guys for- only to see the team stab you in the back when you are due to get your payday.



My biggest question about this whole deal is why in the fuck the Celtics would not trade the Brooklyn pick for Butler or George but would do it for Kyrie. To me that makes no sense- I love Kyrie as a player- but hes not as good as George or Butler.

Why would the Celts leak anything about IT's injury when they just traded him - remember, they were still waiting for IT to take his physical in order to seal the deal. That just doesn't make good business sense at all.

 

[LAD]

There are basically 2 ways to look at this trade. Short term and long term. The Cavs won the short term, the Celtics won the long term.

The Cavs win the short term because they landed a guy who is really close to equal to Kyrie on the offensive end of the floor. They also improved a bit defensively with the addition of Crowder. Their offense should stay about the same and their defense should improve at least a little. This trade keeps them as the odds on favorite to come out of the East and get pummeled by the Warriors. "So they have that going for them, which is nice." lol (Who can tell what movie that's from?)

However, they didn't land anything that is likely to entice Lebron to re-sign with them, they got a guy who may not re-sign with them and whom they may decide they don't want to re-sign given the money he will be seeking and they are a fairly old team that really didn't get much, if any, younger.

The Celtics won the long term aspect of the deal because they got a guy who is one of the best offensive players in the game, is 5 years younger than the guy they gave up and is just entering his prime with plenty of time to improve. They got better offensively (especially with the addition of Hayward) but a little worse defensively unless Stevens can convince Kyrie to at least get in an opponents way once in awhile on defense. They did not, however, address their glaring weakness on rebounding. Also, this trade really doesn't do much as far as catching them up to Cleveland (maybe they can take them to 6 games instead of 5), but it does set them up to be the best team in the East once Lebron leaves or retires.

Note: The Cavs could at least make the trade a wash long term if the Brooklyn pick turns out be a good one and they get a really good player out of it.

I wonder how much better on defense did they really get if IT is burned every night by the opposing PG. Crowder can only cover so many positions, so is LBJ ready to defend multiple positions EVERY night like he did early in his career?
The smarter coaches will recognize the weakness at the PG position and probably run a lot of pick & rolls on IT. The difference becomes IT's inability to flat out defend because of his height disadvantage vs. Kyrie's lack of motivation to defend but still having the ability to at least be a distracting body in front of the offense.

 

[LAD]

according to the Celtics fans Thomas will be fine-- its all they have said all week.

I tend to THINK he will be fine too- but what hte fuck do i know- not only am i not a doctor- i have seen any medical records--- i just know its a bad thing when a pro athlete cant run.

So what does that say about a GM that traded for said athlete?

 

[LAD]

It isn't really fair to tie LeBron's decision in with the long term implications of the trade. Reports before the deal were that he was 100% leaving. That may still be his mindset.

But, if that pick hits 1 or 2, or is flipped for a player like Cousins and he decides to stay? 100% long term win for Cleveland. If Cleveland uses the pick and that player becomes their new franchise star, it is again a long term win regardless of what LeBron does.

The Celtics will be better than Cleveland if LeBron leaves. That doesn't automatically mean they win the long term of this trade, because he was planning to leave before it was made. If that player turns into a legit superstar, the Celtics are big time losers.

I think a lot of people have tied Kyrie's decision to leave to LBJ leaving after next season.

 

[LAD]

Yeah, Connor loves to get his George Jefferson on ...lol

Except for when he was TKO'd on 8/26

 

[LAD]

#1 seed silly.

 

[LAD]

I'm sure Bam can at least out-rebound Steph.

 

[tlance]

I think a lot of people have tied Kyrie's decision to leave to LBJ leaving after next season.

That isn't the case though.

Kyrie left because he didn't want to play with LeBron. LeBron committing long term wouldn't fix that.

 

[Heatles84]

I agree that the Celtics had reached their ceiling with the IT/Bradley let core.

But, they have taken that Brooklyn pick that could be a franchise player and deal it for a core with a slightly higher ceiling. Kyrie and Hayward are tier 3 stars. Both good enough to be your second best guy if the first is somebody like LeBron. When they are 1-2, your ceiling still isn't high enough to win a championship. The Celtics are basically relying on either Tatum or Brown becoming a legit future superstar (or hitting big with that Lakers pick next year).

Or, they are relying on the superteam era ending so that they can have a shot with their Billups Piston like core.

I agree with this. You and I are both in agreement that giving up the Nets likely swayed the winner of the trade in Cleveland's favor given how much the Nets just suck. I was arguing though in terms of the Celtics breaking up their current core. They weren't going to win anything except a game or 2 in the ECF.

 

[Gman]

I agree that the Celtics had reached their ceiling with the IT/Bradley let core.

But, they have taken that Brooklyn pick that could be a franchise player and deal it for a core with a slightly higher ceiling. Kyrie and Hayward are tier 3 stars. Both good enough to be your second best guy if the first is somebody like LeBron. When they are 1-2, your ceiling still isn't high enough to win a championship. The Celtics are basically relying on either Tatum or Brown becoming a legit future superstar (or hitting big with that Lakers pick next year).

Or, they are relying on the superteam era ending so that they can have a shot with their Billups Piston like core.

Your take is a reasonable one...

However, I think there is at least good hope that Kyrie and/or Hayward can become tier 2 stars (to use your parlance)... especially under a coach like Brad Stevens. That's probably their ceiling, I admit... neither one is a LeBron or Kobe (or whatever).

And the jury is still out, certainly... and there is not near enough information on these two... (I'm honestly not trying to jump ahead here)... but there is at least a fair shot that Brown and/or Tatum can develop into very good players in this league, too. Tatum is a rook, so there is no point in saying too much about him (he's gotta show it)... but I will speak on Brown. I've been very impressed by Brown's work ethic in his first year in the league... dude seems to want to improve and have "it"... his improvement over the course of year 1 has me optimistic.

If things work out... Pistons might be a decent comparison in at least some sense... (no super star, just a bunch of really good players)... however, this C's team seems built for offense, offense and more offense... they don't compare at all to that Pistons team in terms of defense/rebounding. That is still the biggest ? on the C's... where they need to find an answer the most: rebounding.

 

[trojanfan12]

I wonder how much better on defense did they really get if IT is burned every night by the opposing PG. Crowder can only cover so many positions, so is LBJ ready to defend multiple positions EVERY night like he did early in his career?
The smarter coaches will recognize the weakness at the PG position and probably run a lot of pick & rolls on IT. The difference becomes IT's inability to flat out defend because of his height disadvantage vs. Kyrie's lack of motivation to defend but still having the ability to at least be a distracting body in front of the offense.

Good points. Yeah, they're going to have to figure out a way to hide IT on defense. Not sure how they do it other than what you suggest and have Lebron covering for everyone defensively

 

[WiggyRuss]

Good points. Yeah, they're going to have to figure out a way to hide IT on defense. Not sure how they do it other than what you suggest and have Lebron covering for everyone defensively

itll be pretty much the same thing they had to do with Kyrie really....

except the rest of the defense should be better with Crowder---- not counting someone they potentially get for the Brooklyn pick.


I mean, Kyrie Irving REFUSED to fight through picks. He just wouldnt do it.

 

[trojanfan12]

itll be pretty much the same thing they had to do with Kyrie really....

It didn't work last year or they didn't do the same thing. Because the last season they were terrible on defense, the season before, they were one of the best in the league.

 

[LogicMan]

I am updating this based on many good feedbacks

Winners:
Kyrie Irving- Gets to escape what is clearly a mess in Cleveland, and Lebron. Joins a storied franchise and fan base, probably will spend his core years in green and perhaps a retired numbere to the rafters
Lebron James- Now has a clear excuse for leaving with no chance to overcome GS unless a miracle happens
Celtics Fans - After years of asset accumulation, finally the cards will start getting played. Exciting core of Hayward, 7-11 twins, Kyrie and Horford. A destination franchise
Gordon Hayward- He avoids the tension that could have started with Crowder reaction to boston fans chants
Cavs Fans - Considering Irving was not going to show up the Cavs got some good assets both short and long term, and much intriuge exists for the year
Brown and Tatum- The kids get lots of playing time with Crowder gone

Losers:
Isiah Thomas- His loyalty was amiss, and his FA value now in question. Hopefully he responds as any Celt fan wants the best for him.


Yet to be rated:
Danny Ainge- He lost the immediate trade, or at least was played. Overall however the rebuild shakes a little but continues forward. If Kyrie is what Danny thinks, it was still the right move, and, he eliminates the pressure to sign a 30 year old tiny phenom to a max contract.
Jae Crowder- He could continue to develop in Cleveland, as he will be seeking a better deal in the years ahead. Hope the best for him

 

[LAD]

Good points. Yeah, they're going to have to figure out a way to hide IT on defense. Not sure how they do it other than what you suggest and have Lebron covering for everyone defensively

I'm willing to bet LBJ wasn't looking to have to defend 4 positions this late in his career. That is how a player can injure himself.

 

[The Q]

I am updating this based on many good feedbacks

Winners:
Kyrie Irving- Gets to escape what is clearly a mess in Cleveland, and Lebron. Joins a storied franchise and fan base, probably will spend his core years in green and perhaps a retired numbere to the rafters
Lebron James- Now has a clear excuse for leaving with no chance to overcome GS unless a miracle happens
Celtics Fans - After years of asset accumulation, finally the cards will start getting played. Exciting core of Hayward, 7-11 twins, Kyrie and Horford. A destination franchise
Gordon Hayward- He avoids the tension that could have started with Crowder reaction to boston fans chants
Cavs Fans - Considering Irving was not going to show up the Cavs got some good assets both short and long term, and much intriuge exists for the year
Brown and Tatum- The kids get lots of playing time with Crowder gone

Losers:
Isiah Thomas- His loyalty was amiss, and his FA value now in question. Hopefully he responds as any Celt fan wants the best for him.


Yet to be rated:
Danny Ainge- He lost the immediate trade, or at least was played. Overall however the rebuild shakes a little but continues forward. If Kyrie is what Danny thinks, it was still the right move, and, he eliminates the pressure to sign a 30 year old tiny phenom to a max contract.
Jae Crowder- He could continue to develop in Cleveland, as he will be seeking a better deal in the years ahead. Hope the best for him

The thing is....Kyrie's problems all have nothing to do with LeBron.

Poor defense, poor creating offense for others, poor shot selection, health.

What do those have to do with LBJ?


PS I think Crowder is a loser cause he goes from starting for Boston to the bench with CLE.

 

[Gman]

The thing is....Kyrie's problems all have nothing to do with LeBron.

Poor defense, poor creating offense for others, poor shot selection, health.

What do those have to do with LBJ?

I think there is a fair argument to be made that LeBron's presence (both as a singular athletic talent, and as a well known @sshole) served to stifle offensive innovation in Cleveland.

If that is true, the middle two points of yours would be impacted by LeBron.