The Deal, Cavs-Celts, winners, losers

[LogicMan]

Winners:
Kyrie Irving- Gets to escape what is clearly a mess in Cleveland, and Lebron. Joins a storied franchise and fan base, probably will spend his core years in green and perhaps a retired numbere to the rafters
Lebron James- Now has a clear excuse for leaving with no chance to overcome GS unless a miracle happens
Celtics Fans - After years of asset accumulation, finally the cards will start getting played. Exciting core of Hayward, 7-11 twins, Kyrie and Horford. A destination franchise
Gordon Hayward- He avoids the tension that could have started with Crowder reaction to boston fans chants

Losers:
Isiah Thomas- His loyalty was amiss, and his FA value now in question. Hopefully he responds as any Celt fan wants the best for him.
Cavs organization- Playing this out until the last minute, leaking info through third parties, wont make people and players trust this franchise. Perhaps they become a winner if the pick is top 3. Oh but the reputation....

Yet to be rated:
Danny Ainge- He lost the immediate trade, or at least was played. Overall however the rebuild shakes a little but continues forward. If Kyrie is what Danny thinks, it was still the right move, and, he eliminates the pressure to sign a 30 year old tiny phenom to a max contract.
Jae Crowder- He could continue to develop in Cleveland, as he will be seeking a better deal in the years ahead. Hope the best for him

 

[tducey]

I still think the Cavs won this deal, if healthy Thomas is better than Irving. We'll see how it pans out.

 

[Gman]

... if healthy Thomas is better than Irving...

I've seen a good handful of folks say something like this...

... I don't get the opinion, and I certainly don't agree.

And I love Isaiah Thomas, too.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Winners:
Kyrie Irving- Gets to escape what is clearly a mess in Cleveland, and Lebron. Joins a storied franchise and fan base, probably will spend his core years in green and perhaps a retired numbere to the rafters
Lebron James- Now has a clear excuse for leaving with no chance to overcome GS unless a miracle happens
Celtics Fans - After years of asset accumulation, finally the cards will start getting played. Exciting core of Hayward, 7-11 twins, Kyrie and Horford. A destination franchise
Gordon Hayward- He avoids the tension that could have started with Crowder reaction to boston fans chants

Losers:
Isiah Thomas- His loyalty was amiss, and his FA value now in question. Hopefully he responds as any Celt fan wants the best for him.
Cavs organization- Playing this out until the last minute, leaking info through third parties, wont make people and players trust this franchise. Perhaps they become a winner if the pick is top 3. Oh but the reputation....

Yet to be rated:
Danny Ainge- He lost the immediate trade, or at least was played. Overall however the rebuild shakes a little but continues forward. If Kyrie is what Danny thinks, it was still the right move, and, he eliminates the pressure to sign a 30 year old tiny phenom to a max contract.
Jae Crowder- He could continue to develop in Cleveland, as he will be seeking a better deal in the years ahead. Hope the best for him

Winners:

1. Cavs: the Celtics bid against themselves here.

2. Koby Altman: a 34 year old GM took over and he got way more for a disgruntled player than anyone imagined.

3. Celtics long term prospects: Kyrie and Hayward is a nice tag team in the East once LeBron retires/leaves.

4. Jae Crowder- goes from being a bench player on a solid ECF team to a major cog in the best team in the East.

Losers:

1. Irving: Leaves LeBron James and a team that has been to 3 straight Finals to a team that has less than a punchers chance at beating the Cavs- waived his trade kicker as well. And with Hayward in town he isnt even the clear-cut "man" that he wanted to be.

2. Isiah Thomas' free agent value: not good to see your injury woes played out in the public eye due to "reports" that were probably leaked by the Celtics- the team you just played your ass off for and recruited guys for- only to see the team stab you in the back when you are due to get your payday.



My biggest question about this whole deal is why in the fuck the Celtics would not trade the Brooklyn pick for Butler or George but would do it for Kyrie. To me that makes no sense- I love Kyrie as a player- but hes not as good as George or Butler.

 

[cerealboi]

I still think the Cavs won this deal, if healthy Thomas is better than Irving. We'll see how it pans out.

Does anyone think a healthy Thomas is better than Irving? I did a thread where I asked everyone to rank George, Irving, Butler, and Thomas. Most people had Irving in the 3rd spot and Thomas in the 4th.

Personally I think the Cavs won this deal IF Thomas plays 60 or more games. If not and the Cavs don't re-sign him then. . . .

 

[Rock Strongo]

no matter who you side with, its an upgrade going from a 5 foot nothing defensive liability due to size to a 6'3 guy who just doesnt like playing defense, tho he is capable.

id take the latter in a heartbeat.

i loved watching isiaiah here. he gave this team everything he had, even the day after he lost his sister.

crowder is overrated and overrates himself. solid 2 way player, can play multiple spots...but he doesnt do one thing extremely well. one night he has 18/7/5, the next he shoots 2-12.

its worth noting that marcus smart outplayed crowder in the playoffs (especially from 3)....and smart shoots like hes legally blind.

 

[WiggyRuss]

I've seen a good handful of folks say something like this...

... I don't get the opinion, and I certainly don't agree.

And I love Isaiah Thomas, too.

totally agree

Irving is def. the better player.

Thomas was 2nd team All NBA and Irving did not make 3rd team- but thats about opportunity and record. Not talent.

 

[Gman]

totally agree

Irving is def. the better player.

Thomas was 2nd team All NBA and Irving did not make 3rd team- but thats about opportunity and record. Not talent.

Yep. IT was the clear lead dog on a team and in an offense that was tailor made for his talents.

Irving was LeBron's sidekick... with much less in the way of offensive scheme.

To say nothing of the height difference, which obviously matters in the NBA.

 

[trojanfan12]

There are basically 2 ways to look at this trade. Short term and long term. The Cavs won the short term, the Celtics won the long term.

The Cavs win the short term because they landed a guy who is really close to equal to Kyrie on the offensive end of the floor. They also improved a bit defensively with the addition of Crowder. Their offense should stay about the same and their defense should improve at least a little. This trade keeps them as the odds on favorite to come out of the East and get pummeled by the Warriors. "So they have that going for them, which is nice." lol (Who can tell what movie that's from?)

However, they didn't land anything that is likely to entice Lebron to re-sign with them, they got a guy who may not re-sign with them and whom they may decide they don't want to re-sign given the money he will be seeking and they are a fairly old team that really didn't get much, if any, younger.

The Celtics won the long term aspect of the deal because they got a guy who is one of the best offensive players in the game, is 5 years younger than the guy they gave up and is just entering his prime with plenty of time to improve. They got better offensively (especially with the addition of Hayward) but a little worse defensively unless Stevens can convince Kyrie to at least get in an opponents way once in awhile on defense. They did not, however, address their glaring weakness on rebounding. Also, this trade really doesn't do much as far as catching them up to Cleveland (maybe they can take them to 6 games instead of 5), but it does set them up to be the best team in the East once Lebron leaves or retires.

Note: The Cavs could at least make the trade a wash long term if the Brooklyn pick turns out be a good one and they get a really good player out of it.

 

[Heatles84]

Winners:

1. Cavs: the Celtics bid against themselves here.

2. Koby Altman: a 34 year old GM took over and he got way more for a disgruntled player than anyone imagined.

3. Celtics long term prospects: Kyrie and Hayward is a nice tag team in the East once LeBron retires/leaves.

4. Jae Crowder- goes from being a bench player on a solid ECF team to a major cog in the best team in the East.

Losers:

1. Irving: Leaves LeBron James and a team that has been to 3 straight Finals to a team that has less than a punchers chance at beating the Cavs- waived his trade kicker as well. And with Hayward in town he isnt even the clear-cut "man" that he wanted to be.

2. Isiah Thomas' free agent value: not good to see your injury woes played out in the public eye due to "reports" that were probably leaked by the Celtics- the team you just played your ass off for and recruited guys for- only to see the team stab you in the back when you are due to get your payday.



My biggest question about this whole deal is why in the fuck the Celtics would not trade the Brooklyn pick for Butler or George but would do it for Kyrie. To me that makes no sense- I love Kyrie as a player- but hes not as good as George or Butler.

That's been my major knock on Ainge. He could've gave that up for better players in Butler and George; especially the former who was basically acquired for Lavine and a bag of peanuts.

I don't agree with Irving being the loser. Depends on how you want to view it - short term or long term? Sure, this season he has less of a chance to go to the Finals now. But long term, if/when Lebron leaves Cleveland, he'll be on the perceived best team in the East. Staying in Cleveland with the way the roster is constructed wouldn't do Irving any favors with pieces that don't fit his skill set.

No one knows who the clear cut best player is on the team as well as what the pecking order is - but I do know he has way more offensive upside than Heyward does.

 

[WiggyRuss]

There are basically 2 ways to look at this trade. Short term and long term. The Cavs won the short term, the Celtics won the long term.

The Cavs win the short term because they landed a guy who is really close to equal to Kyrie on the offensive end of the floor. They also improved a bit defensively with the addition of Crowder. Their offense should stay about the same and their defense should improve at least a little. This trade keeps them as the odds on favorite to come out of the East and get pummeled by the Warriors. "So they have that going for them, which is nice." lol (Who can tell what movie that's from?)

However, they didn't land anything that is likely to entice Lebron to re-sign with them, they got a guy who may not re-sign with them and whom they may decide they don't want to re-sign given the money he will be seeking and they are a fairly old team that really didn't get much, if any, younger.

The Celtics won the long term aspect of the deal because they got a guy who is one of the best offensive players in the game, is 5 years younger than the guy they gave up and is just entering his prime with plenty of time to improve. They got better offensively (especially with the addition of Hayward) but a little worse defensively unless Stevens can convince Kyrie to at least get in an opponents way once in awhile on defense. They did not, however, address their glaring weakness on rebounding. Also, this trade really doesn't do much as far as catching them up to Cleveland (maybe they can take them to 6 games instead of 5), but it does set them up to be the best team in the East once Lebron leaves or retires.

Note: The Cavs could at least make the trade a wash long term if the Brooklyn pick turns out be a good one and they get a really good player out of it.

if the Cavs somehow get Cousins or Gasol- or Bagley or Porter out of this- i cant see how it is anything but a home run for the Cavs.

I mean- if t his trade is the impetus for LeBron resigning- it is an out of the park grand slam

 

[WiggyRuss]

That's been my major knock on Ainge. He could've gave that up for better players in Butler and George; especially the former who was basically acquired for Lavine and a bag of peanuts.

I don't agree with Irving being the loser. Depends on how you want to view it - short term or long term? Sure, this season he has less of a chance to go to the Finals now. But long term, if/when Lebron leaves Cleveland, he'll be on the perceived best team in the East. Staying in Cleveland with the way the roster is constructed wouldn't do Irving any favors with pieces that don't fit his skill set.

No one knows who the clear cut best player is on the team as well as what the pecking order is - but I do know he has way more offensive upside than Heyward does.

some good points.

Im just thinking...

on one hand- you have Hayward- a free agent that came to Boston of his own free will to play for the coach the Celtics fans love.

and you have Kyrie- a guy who many Celtics fans think the Celtics overpaid for- and hes replacing a guy the fans absolutely loved in Isiah Thomas.

there is going to be a TON of pressure on Kyrie to perform and live up to the price the Celtics paid for him- and his job isnt going to get easier on the court considering he used to play with LeBron and a bunch of good 3 point shootes spacing the floor for him- including Love- one of the best floor spreading big men out there.

 

[The Q]

Winners:
Kyrie Irving- Gets to escape what is clearly a mess in Cleveland, and Lebron. Joins a storied franchise and fan base, probably will spend his core years in green and perhaps a retired numbere to the rafters
Lebron James- Now has a clear excuse for leaving with no chance to overcome GS unless a miracle happens
Celtics Fans - After years of asset accumulation, finally the cards will start getting played. Exciting core of Hayward, 7-11 twins, Kyrie and Horford. A destination franchise
Gordon Hayward- He avoids the tension that could have started with Crowder reaction to boston fans chants

Losers:
Isiah Thomas- His loyalty was amiss, and his FA value now in question. Hopefully he responds as any Celt fan wants the best for him.
Cavs organization- Playing this out until the last minute, leaking info through third parties, wont make people and players trust this franchise. Perhaps they become a winner if the pick is top 3. Oh but the reputation....

Yet to be rated:
Danny Ainge- He lost the immediate trade, or at least was played. Overall however the rebuild shakes a little but continues forward. If Kyrie is what Danny thinks, it was still the right move, and, he eliminates the pressure to sign a 30 year old tiny phenom to a max contract.
Jae Crowder- He could continue to develop in Cleveland, as he will be seeking a better deal in the years ahead. Hope the best for him

The pink hats are happy.

Ones who want to actually win a title should not be happy with this.

 

[The Q]

Winners:

1. Cavs: the Celtics bid against themselves here.

2. Koby Altman: a 34 year old GM took over and he got way more for a disgruntled player than anyone imagined.

3. Celtics long term prospects: Kyrie and Hayward is a nice tag team in the East once LeBron retires/leaves.

4. Jae Crowder- goes from being a bench player on a solid ECF team to a major cog in the best team in the East.

Losers:

1. Irving: Leaves LeBron James and a team that has been to 3 straight Finals to a team that has less than a punchers chance at beating the Cavs- waived his trade kicker as well. And with Hayward in town he isnt even the clear-cut "man" that he wanted to be.

2. Isiah Thomas' free agent value: not good to see your injury woes played out in the public eye due to "reports" that were probably leaked by the Celtics- the team you just played your ass off for and recruited guys for- only to see the team stab you in the back when you are due to get your payday.



My biggest question about this whole deal is why in the fuck the Celtics would not trade the Brooklyn pick for Butler or George but would do it for Kyrie. To me that makes no sense- I love Kyrie as a player- but hes not as good as George or Butler.

Crowder was probably going to start for Boston, now he moves to the bench.

I have him as a loser.

 

[The Q]

There are basically 2 ways to look at this trade. Short term and long term. The Cavs won the short term, the Celtics won the long term.

The Cavs win the short term because they landed a guy who is really close to equal to Kyrie on the offensive end of the floor. They also improved a bit defensively with the addition of Crowder. Their offense should stay about the same and their defense should improve at least a little. This trade keeps them as the odds on favorite to come out of the East and get pummeled by the Warriors. "So they have that going for them, which is nice." lol (Who can tell what movie that's from?)

However, they didn't land anything that is likely to entice Lebron to re-sign with them, they got a guy who may not re-sign with them and whom they may decide they don't want to re-sign given the money he will be seeking and they are a fairly old team that really didn't get much, if any, younger.

The Celtics won the long term aspect of the deal because they got a guy who is one of the best offensive players in the game, is 5 years younger than the guy they gave up and is just entering his prime with plenty of time to improve. They got better offensively (especially with the addition of Hayward) but a little worse defensively unless Stevens can convince Kyrie to at least get in an opponents way once in awhile on defense. They did not, however, address their glaring weakness on rebounding. Also, this trade really doesn't do much as far as catching them up to Cleveland (maybe they can take them to 6 games instead of 5), but it does set them up to be the best team in the East once Lebron leaves or retires.

Note: The Cavs could at least make the trade a wash long term if the Brooklyn pick turns out be a good one and they get a really good player out of it.

giving up the brooklyn pick makes it highly unlikely the Celtics win in the long term.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Crowder was probably going to start for Boston, now he moves to the bench.

I have him as a loser.

where would he have started? the 4?

i have heard that the Cavs may play him there here and there...

or were you thinking the 2?

 

[Heatles84]

some good points.

Im just thinking...

on one hand- you have Hayward- a free agent that came to Boston of his own free will to play for the coach the Celtics fans love.

and you have Kyrie- a guy who many Celtics fans think the Celtics overpaid for- and hes replacing a guy the fans absolutely loved in Isiah Thomas.

there is going to be a TON of pressure on Kyrie to perform and live up to the price the Celtics paid for him- and his job isnt going to get easier on the court considering he used to play with LeBron and a bunch of good 3 point shootes spacing the floor for him- including Love- one of the best floor spreading big men out there.

For Irving, I'm not concerned about pressure. You've mentioned dozens of times that Irving hit the biggest shot in Cleveland sports history with his '16 game 7 3-point dagger.

We'll see how the relationship dynamic works out with Stevens/Heyward/Irving. Does he recognize that Kyrie's the better player? Or does the offense he runs suit better through the wing like Heyward? Time will tell.

 

[Heatles84]

giving up the brooklyn pick makes it highly unlikely the Celtics win in the long term.

Yeah.....not like they don't have any other 1st round draft picks.

 

[Heatles84]

where would he have started? the 4?

i have heard that the Cavs may play him there here and there...

or were you thinking the 2?

I think Crowder will be a 1st/2nd player off the bench that will rotate amongst the 2 and the 3. Rarely could I see him at the 4; maybe in small lineups.

 

[The Q]

For Irving, I'm not concerned about pressure. You've mentioned dozens of times that Irving hit the biggest shot in Cleveland sports history with his '16 game 7 3-point dagger.

We'll see how the relationship dynamic works out with Stevens/Heyward/Irving. Does he recognize that Kyrie's the better player? Or does the offense he runs suit better through the wing like Heyward? Time will tell.

Brad Stevens isn't stupid, so he wouldn't ever recognize Kyrie is the better player.

Hayward is absolutely the better player.