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Seattle Arena Hansen

chf

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Dwayne Casey, who used to work for the Sonics?

Don't THINK so, but I wouldn't bet my life on it or anything.
 

Destroydacre

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I've given up on seeing seeing basketball in Seattle ever again. The incompetence of the mayor and city council is so great, it can't can't even be quantified.

I couldn't care less about the NBA to be honest. After Stern expedited the Sonics relocation and worked behind the scenes to prevent the Kings from moving, no thanks. I don't care if he's not commissioner anymore.

The NHL however, that I would like to see.
 

jakedog56

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I hear ya. Difficult to put money into a product when it was ripped away from you and the commish encouraged it to happen. I had the Sixers to fall back on which isn't saying much in the recent years but I would feel the same way if the league took away the Sixers and with Sonics long gone I too wouldn't put another penny into the NBA.

It's "funny" that you bring up the Sixers. During the whole battle to move the Sonics out of Seattle, they consistantly brought up fan support as an issue but a whole bunch of teams in the recent years before the move had worse attendance and ratings numbers, including Atlanta, Washington, Milwaukee, Charlotte, etc. and, most notably, the Sixers. I was quick to point out the specifics of this but people kept on jumping back onto this rhetoric just because the point was promotted by the NBA.
 

blstoker

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It's "funny" that you bring up the Sixers. During the whole battle to move the Sonics out of Seattle, they consistantly brought up fan support as an issue but a whole bunch of teams in the recent years before the move had worse attendance and ratings numbers, including Atlanta, Washington, Milwaukee, Charlotte, etc. and, most notably, the Sixers. I was quick to point out the specifics of this but people kept on jumping back onto this rhetoric just because the point was promotted by the NBA.

Yeah, I have always hated the support issue that is brought up in connection with the Sonics relocation (in my case, usually by OKC fans). For the 20 seasons before Bennett tanked '07-'08 season, Seattle were top 5 in % of seats filled for their attendance nearly every season, even when they were losing. They consistently filled Key Arena every game, win or lose.
 

jakedog56

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Yeah, I have always hated the support issue that is brought up in connection with the Sonics relocation (in my case, usually by OKC fans). For the 20 seasons before Bennett tanked '07-'08 season, Seattle were top 5 in % of seats filled for their attendance nearly every season, even when they were losing. They consistently filled Key Arena every game, win or lose.

Well, that is not entirely true. The attendance did drop off in the last 2-3 years before the sale to Bennett (there was the one year that the Lewis-Allen led team were very sucessful and it was sold out for most of that year), but it was still in the mid-90% capacity, which was higher than all of the teams that I did mention. Before that it was many years 100% capacity ticket sales.

But using fan support as an excuse was ridiculous. The problem was and still is the viability of the Key Arena. It just does not work in today's NBA. As I mentioned previously, there needs to be amenities surrounding the arena (not possible at the Key), parking, at least to a certain extent, needs to be part of the arena grounds (again not possible at the Key). Not to mention the lack of foresight on the previous remodel in regards to luxury suites and total number of seats (remember that is was purposely designed to seat just below the minimum amount of seats required by the NHL to garner a team).

OKC's population base is so much less than the Sonics was, particularly when you add the surrounding areas of local broadcasting (I know that Alaska, Idaho, BC, and I think Montana all carried Sonics local feeds), that the revenue from that alone is significant.

OKC could be in serious trouble in the long term. Westbrook is a spectacular athlete who kept them in the media all year but his out of control season might be doing more harm than good in the long run as he tries to be a one man wreaking crew. It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for them and they are in danger of wasting Westbrook's best years on a stat quest after which they would be left with a shell of a team that never developed because they all stood around and watched the one man band. If he gets injured (quite probable if he continues this course over the next few years. He looked completely burned out tired in the 4th quarter of the last game), or moves on from the franchise they could be stuck in limbo for years. Westbrook currently keeps them relevant enough that they will not be in position to draft a star and no top FA in their right mind would want to sign to play with a guy who dominates the ball (yes, "ballhog" on a historical scale) at a 40%+ usage rate per game.

Kind of off topic from the arena debate, but it is intersting to watch. I am happy to be able to root for Durant again!
 

jerseyhawksfan79

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It's "funny" that you bring up the Sixers. During the whole battle to move the Sonics out of Seattle, they consistantly brought up fan support as an issue but a whole bunch of teams in the recent years before the move had worse attendance and ratings numbers, including Atlanta, Washington, Milwaukee, Charlotte, etc. and, most notably, the Sixers. I was quick to point out the specifics of this but people kept on jumping back onto this rhetoric just because the point was promotted by the NBA.

I never believed in it myself, all NBA propaganda to still the pot a bit. The Sixers have had real good attendance (except the last few years cause of the tanking) and like Seattle, it's a basketball town. If everyone is healthy, the fans will fill that stadium next season. The other thing that never made any sense on the Sixers moving was owner Ed Snyder who owned them and the Flyers for who knows how long and he was a staple in Philly area. There was never any danger of the Sixers moving.
 

jerseyhawksfan79

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Yeah, and I also just sorta feel like I'm "too old" or have outgrown the NBA. It's been increasingly difficult to connect with or relate to the players as I got into my mid-late 30s. Not having a team to cheer for probably contributes to that, but that antics of some of these guys....like the COACH of I think it was Toronto the other night with his weird tantrum during the press conference. He was acting like some sort of rapper or something. wth. It's just not my style, and if the Sonics do come back I'll probably go to a game or 2 each season but I don't think I'll be excited for it like I used to be. I would be pumped and jacked for NHL though.

It's difficult to relate to the game now when you don't have a team to follow nor would you want to follow it after the Sonics left. I root for the Devils so I haven't cheered for much lately but the NHL is a good product and I would like to see Seattle get a team soon.
 

JMR

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The problem was and still is the viability of the Key Arena. It just does not work in today's NBA. As I mentioned previously, there needs to be amenities surrounding the arena (not possible at the Key), parking, at least to a certain extent, needs to be part of the arena grounds (again not possible at the Key).
I hear this one a lot, and I don't get it. What was in place previously in those areas that is no longer present? Parking sucked around the Key when the Sonics were here. Is there less parking now? What amenities around the Key have gone away since the Sonics left? Traffic sucked really bad back then as well. Place was still packed. Public trans is a little better now than it was 10 years ago too with the Link that you can take from as far south as SeaTac to Westlake and then mono rail to the Key. Necessity is also the mother of invention; we have a long way to go still with the public trans backbone and changing our behavior to use it more, but having a team play 40+ times a year at the Seattle Center may be a catalyst to help move that along a bit.

Maybe I'm just missing something, but the whole "the Key isn't viable" argument due to location has never made sense to me because the Sonics were already there and thrived for 30 years despite all those same factors being present that supposedly make it non-viable.
 

MKHawk

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Dwayne Casey, who used to work for the Sonics?

Don't THINK so, but I wouldn't bet my life on it or anything.

The Memphis coach is the one who went off in a recent press conference.
 

blstoker

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Well, that is not entirely true. The attendance did drop off in the last 2-3 years before the sale to Bennett (there was the one year that the Lewis-Allen led team were very sucessful and it was sold out for most of that year), but it was still in the mid-90% capacity, which was higher than all of the teams that I did mention. Before that it was many years 100% capacity ticket sales.

I said nearly every season, not every season. Of course interest waned as the team was sold and whatnot. Still, it wasn't until the last season when everyone knew that Bennett would move the team before attendance dipped below 90% (78.6).

I did a ranking of every team's attendance %'s a few years ago, but I don't know where it is - and it was way too much work to go do it all again (hence my vague nearly every year - because I don't have that research any longer). Seattle was consistently one of the most filled arenas every year - even if their venue didn't allow them to have enough seats to compete for top 10 overall attendance.
 

blstoker

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Maybe I'm just missing something, but the whole "the Key isn't viable" argument due to location has never made sense to me because the Sonics were already there and thrived for 30 years despite all those same factors being present that supposedly make it non-viable.

I don't think Hansen is looking to build a new arena if the NBA would consider the Key (as is) for another team. The Key was the scapegoat for the move, nothing more. It wasn't even the smallest arena at the time - and wouldn't be the smallest now.
 

jakedog56

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I said nearly every season, not every season. Of course interest waned as the team was sold and whatnot. Still, it wasn't until the last season when everyone knew that Bennett would move the team before attendance dipped below 90% (78.6).

I did a ranking of every team's attendance %'s a few years ago, but I don't know where it is - and it was way too much work to go do it all again (hence my vague nearly every year - because I don't have that research any longer). Seattle was consistently one of the most filled arenas every year - even if their venue didn't allow them to have enough seats to compete for top 10 overall attendance.

All true!
 

jakedog56

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I hear this one a lot, and I don't get it. What was in place previously in those areas that is no longer present? Parking sucked around the Key when the Sonics were here. Is there less parking now? What amenities around the Key have gone away since the Sonics left? Traffic sucked really bad back then as well. Place was still packed. Public trans is a little better now than it was 10 years ago too with the Link that you can take from as far south as SeaTac to Westlake and then mono rail to the Key. Necessity is also the mother of invention; we have a long way to go still with the public trans backbone and changing our behavior to use it more, but having a team play 40+ times a year at the Seattle Center may be a catalyst to help move that along a bit.

Maybe I'm just missing something, but the whole "the Key isn't viable" argument due to location has never made sense to me because the Sonics were already there and thrived for 30 years despite all those same factors being present that supposedly make it non-viable.

You're missing the point. The parking around the Seattle Center is privately owned by a seperate entity. That is a huge revenue loss for a team. So it's not about how much parking, but who profits from it.

Perhaps a bigger hurdle is the amenities. You now build sports complexes with overpriced fancy restaurants and popular brand name shops. You can't do that in a city park (thankfully so!), which makes the Seattle Centre less than desirable.

That does not even consider the seating and luxury box issues and the capacity issues at the Key itself.
 

dude82

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I hear this one a lot, and I don't get it. What was in place previously in those areas that is no longer present? Parking sucked around the Key when the Sonics were here. Is there less parking now? What amenities around the Key have gone away since the Sonics left? Traffic sucked really bad back then as well. Place was still packed. Public trans is a little better now than it was 10 years ago too with the Link that you can take from as far south as SeaTac to Westlake and then mono rail to the Key. Necessity is also the mother of invention; we have a long way to go still with the public trans backbone and changing our behavior to use it more, but having a team play 40+ times a year at the Seattle Center may be a catalyst to help move that along a bit.

Maybe I'm just missing something, but the whole "the Key isn't viable" argument due to location has never made sense to me because the Sonics were already there and thrived for 30 years despite all those same factors being present that supposedly make it non-viable.

After the Seattle Coliseum was remodeled, Key Arena was called "State of the Art" by a lot of people, including Commissioner Jackass, but sometime between then and when the Sonics were stolen, it became no longer "State of the Art". To return it to that status (at least until the NBA business model changes again and someone finds a problem with it) in that exact location would be impossible because of all of the reasons jakedog pointed out. You can't just have an arena anymore. It has to be an entertainment complex and there's just not enough room around Key Arena as it stands now to build one. That's why it's confusing as to why city officials seem to like that idea more than the Hansen proposal.
 

blstoker

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After the Seattle Coliseum was remodeled, Key Arena was called "State of the Art" by a lot of people, including Commissioner Jackass, but sometime between then and when the Sonics were stolen, it became no longer "State of the Art". To return it to that status (at least until the NBA business model changes again and someone finds a problem with it) in that exact location would be impossible because of all of the reasons jakedog pointed out. You can't just have an arena anymore. It has to be an entertainment complex and there's just not enough room around Key Arena as it stands now to build one. That's why it's confusing as to why city officials seem to like that idea more than the Hansen proposal.

It isn't confusing why they don't want Hansen's proposal. It just isn't related to the Sonics or the viability of the Hansen project.
 

jerseyhawksfan79

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My guess is some people have lots of money invested and would lose out if the Hansen deal went through.
 

JMR

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You're missing the point. The parking around the Seattle Center is privately owned by a seperate entity. That is a huge revenue loss for a team. So it's not about how much parking, but who profits from it.

Not saying you're incorrect, but I've honestly never heard anyone frame it that way before. It's always been, "there isn't enough parking!!"

Perhaps a bigger hurdle is the amenities. You now build sports complexes with overpriced fancy restaurants and popular brand name shops. You can't do that in a city park (thankfully so!), which makes the Seattle Centre less than desirable.
This "amenities" thing seems pretty nebulous to me. Are there less amenities now than 20 years ago? When the Starbucks guy sold us down the river, the main reasons I heard advertised we were losing the team was either about the arena itself and of course the new owner wanted to move them to OKC specifically.

That does not even consider the seating and luxury box issues and the capacity issues at the Key itself.
Hence the remodel? Wouldn't they be savvy enough to include this in the new facility's design?

Hell, I dunno, maybe I'm way out in LF. I just don't remember these reasons being such a prohibitive deal before when the team was here and thriving. Maybe winning helped us overlook some of that.
 

jakedog56

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Not saying you're incorrect, but I've honestly never heard anyone frame it that way before. It's always been, "there isn't enough parking!!"


This "amenities" thing seems pretty nebulous to me. Are there less amenities now than 20 years ago? When the Starbucks guy sold us down the river, the main reasons I heard advertised we were losing the team was either about the arena itself and of course the new owner wanted to move them to OKC specifically.


Hence the remodel? Wouldn't they be savvy enough to include this in the new facility's design?

Hell, I dunno, maybe I'm way out in LF. I just don't remember these reasons being such a prohibitive deal before when the team was here and thriving. Maybe winning helped us overlook some of that.

The version that you are backing is a more superficial one that was sold to the public that addresses only the cities needs.The reality is that it is not realistic for an NBA team. The city is just desperate to use the Key because it looks bad to the general public when it is an underused facility.

In regards to the parking, there is zero parking associated with the Key Arena directly. It is a completely untapped revenue source. Believe me, the ownership would care less if there was enough parking if they sold out consistently and made 8 figures per year on the parking which is a low overhead/low maintenance revenue source when established.

In regards to the amenities, you are correct in that there are not less now than before but that is inadequate for a modern NBA team. They need a privatized complex with shops onsite. Have you seen the new L.A. one? It is basically an extremely upscale mall with an arena in it. That is what you need today to maximize profits and you cannot do that on the Seattle Center grounds.

When they last "remodeled" the Key, it was actually a full rebuild. They took it completely down and started from scratch. The mistake was intentionally making it too small to accommodate NHL. They need to enlarge the "footprint", which means a complete teardown (again), digging the base down (I don't know how far. Maybe 30+ feet?), rebuild the foundation, and then build it up. If you want to add luxury boxes (necessary) AND also add seat capacity (also necessary) then you basically have to start over completely.

Believe me, I am well informed on the previous issues regarding the stadium during the move. Many hours of discussion with many people. Admitably I am not up to date on the specifics of the new proposals and how they are addressing all of these issues but it seems to me that the city is insisting on shoving the Key into play while the NBA has consistently stated it is not a viable option. Hanson's proposal involves no public funding and a new viable site and facility. I understand why the city would want to use the Key but I just don't see how it is the better option in any way, shape, or form.
 

JMR

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In regards to the amenities, you are correct in that there are not less now than before but that is inadequate for a modern NBA team. They need a privatized complex with shops onsite. Have you seen the new L.A. one? It is basically an extremely upscale mall with an arena in it. That is what you need today to maximize profits and you cannot do that on the Seattle Center grounds.

Wow. If you're telling me you need essentially Caesar's fuggin Palace to support an NBA team, then yeah I've totally lost the pulse on that league in the last 10 years. And SODO surely isn't glitzy LA, but there you somehow have 2 stadiums and 3 pro teams. The whole thing just doesn't add up, but I don't disagree that an arena with all the accouterments of the Bellagio would "maximize" profits. I'm just not convinced the NBA or NHL stays away without it.

When they last "remodeled" the Key, it was actually a full rebuild. They took it completely down and started from scratch. The mistake was intentionally making it too small to accommodate NHL. They need to enlarge the "footprint", which means a complete teardown (again), digging the base down (I don't know how far. Maybe 30+ feet?), rebuild the foundation, and then build it up. If you want to add luxury boxes (necessary) AND also add seat capacity (also necessary) then you basically have to start over completely.

Believe me, I am well informed on the previous issues regarding the stadium during the move. Many hours of discussion with many people. Admitably I am not up to date on the specifics of the new proposals and how they are addressing all of these issues but it seems to me that the city is insisting on shoving the Key into play while the NBA has consistently stated it is not a viable option. Hanson's proposal involves no public funding and a new viable site and facility. I understand why the city would want to use the Key but I just don't see how it is the better option in any way, shape, or form.
Did you listen to the interviews with Leiwike (sp) on 710 last week where he was discussing the Key rebuild plan in general detail? He says it meets the requirements for both NBA and NHL, to include capacity. So unless he's lying or just wrong, to me all the arena-specific deficiencies are moot.

I'm not necessarily saying the Key is the best course of action, but I just don't think it's an impossible one. It may very well be better and make more sense to build a brand new facilitiy in SODO, but I'm with Mike Salk: I don't really care where it is, I just want NBA/NHL here. If that's the Key, awesome. If it's SODO, awesome.
 

HaroldSeattle

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Did you listen to the interviews with Leiwike (sp) on 710 last week where he was discussing the Key rebuild plan in general detail? He says it meets the requirements for both NBA and NHL, to include capacity. So unless he's lying or just wrong, to me all the arena-specific deficiencies are moot.

I'd say that is just his opinion. You do realize that Leiweke is CEO of Anschultz Entertainment group, who are expected to submit a Key Arena proposal ? So I'd say his remarks (opinions) are a bit self serving and to be taken with a grain of salt.

As a fan I find the Sudo plan more desirable by far. You'll have better parking arrangements by far, the Sounder train is also available ( no need to stand in line again to get on a mono rail ). A bigger and better facility and on and on. It's really a no brainer for a fan. The city of course is determined to block it, because it will make Key Arena obsolete and useless. Apparently they want to double down their money on Key Arena and holding to the hope they can jam it down professional leagues throats, despite the fact that the NBA already turned their noses up at it.
 
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