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Rumor: Wentz to be Ready for Opener

fordman84

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Except that Dak's great season he leaned massively on Elliot and a road-grading O-line. Dak was never the center of the offense (just as Foles was not when Wentz went out).

And Foles himself, when he got going, played out of his mind (overall for playoffs some of the best numbers of all time). The difference between the Eagles being one-and-done and the Eagles winning it all was Foles just exploding from the start of the 2nd half against Atlanta onwards. With Foles at QB for a whole season, the Eagles would never have gotten to the Super Bowl, as they would never have gotten home field advantage (which IMHO was crucial).

I understand how you could think all of this. Facts are that Foles did just as well with his team as Wentz did.

Funny to see someone in a single post say that a single player doesn't deserve credit for those around him (when he hates the team taht player plays for), and then say a single player deserves all the credit for those around him (when he wears the pajamas of the team that player plays for).
 

DutchBird

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Can you really claim a SB victory if you have never played in even a single playoff game?

Difficult, as IMHO without Wentz they would never have gotten there in the first place.
 

jarntt

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sorry bad argument. I had forgotten the Wentz fumbles too.

Still, we have a ring.
Much better argument. You should have led with that one:thumb:
 

ill

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Difficult, as IMHO without Wentz they would never have gotten there in the first place.
and we can't be sure what he was saying into the headset or if he was calling plays during the games. I am sure he was involved in the offense the entire way.
 

fordman84

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Difficult, as IMHO without Wentz they would never have gotten there in the first place.

or would they have done better? If you are easily able to view alternate realities where Dak doesn't do as good without his OL "roadgrating" then you should be able to take a look a Foles under center all season.
 

fordman84

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and we can't be sure what he was saying into the headset or if he was calling plays during the games. I am sure he was involved in the offense the entire way.

You haven't heard the audio tapes? carson can be heard saying "B, U, S, T...bust it baby, bust it". Other times he can be heard saying "Give me a P... Give me an H..." and then it gets staticky.
 

DutchBird

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I understand how you could think all of this. Facts are that Foles did just as well with his team as Wentz did.

Funny to see someone in a single post say that a single player doesn't deserve credit for those around him (when he hates the team taht player plays for), and then say a single player deserves all the credit for those around him (when he wears the pajamas of the team that player plays for).

Except I do not, AFAIK.

Wentz: center piece of the offense from day 1. With absolutely nothing to work with (2016 season), still made the team competitive. When he got a nice supply of weapons, and O-line consistency, his play was MVP caliber. Note, BTW, that Wentz by the middle of last season had a lot of freedom on the LOS to call plays himself (more Peyton Manning style).

Dak: never been the center piece of the offense when he was succesful, but meant as a complementary piece (a role he played very well) to Elliot and a road-grading O-line. When forced to become the center piece of the offense, he fell flat (to say he imploded goes too far).

Foles: Very succesful and extremely good in the right system, where what is asked of him is limited. Not someone asked to carry the whole team (when asked, fell flat), but witin a given structured system is extremely good and dangerous. If the system does not suit him, he again falls flat.
 

fordman84

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Except I do not, AFAIK.

Wentz: center piece of the offense from day 1. With absolutely nothing to work with (2016 season), still made the team competitive. When he got a nice supply of weapons, and O-line consistency, his play was MVP caliber. Note, BTW, that Wentz by the middle of last season had a lot of freedom on the LOS to call plays himself (more Peyton Manning style).

Dak: never been the center piece of the offense when he was succesful, but meant as a complementary piece (a role he played very well) to Elliot and a road-grading O-line. When forced to become the center piece of the offense, he fell flat (to say he imploded goes too far).

Foles: Very succesful and extremely good in the right system, where what is asked of him is limited. Not someone asked to carry the whole team (when asked, fell flat), but witin a given structured system is extremely good and dangerous. If the system does not suit him, he again falls flat.

You said Dak winning his first year was because of those around him. Foles winning in the playoffs though was solely because he played out of his mind.

You gave no credit to one QB and all the credit to another. Despite the fact we saw the Eagles getting the #1 spot even before Foles was under center, so you have incontrovertible proof that those around him had a lot more to do with the success than "Foles playing out of his mind".
 

Roy Munson

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You said Dak winning his first year was because of those around him. Foles winning in the playoffs though was solely because he played out of his mind.

You gave no credit to one QB and all the credit to another. Despite the fact we saw the Eagles getting the #1 spot even before Foles was under center, so you have incontrovertible proof that those around him had a lot more to do with the success than "Foles playing out of his mind".

I'll credit the offensive coaching staff the most for Foles success.
 

ericd7633

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Foles was awesome
Wentz was awesome

Combined they went 16-2 in games they started and/or finished. The eagles were blowing the fuck outta teams with Wentz in there. With Foles the eagles blew the fuck out of the Vikings in the NFC championship.

Without Wentz' play I don't think the eagles get HFT. Most notably probably losing to the Rams. After that all we had to was beat the shitty Giants and Raiders, both games which we struggled.

Honestly this eagles team should go down as one of the best teams in nfl history.
 

Iggloo

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"I hate to sound like a broken record, but Carson Wentz looks really good. It's hard to fathom (a) how well he is moving six months after tearing his ACL and LCL, (b) the improvement he has made just from the start of OTAs a few weeks ago to the final day of minicamp, and (c) how well he is throwing the football."

Eagles minicamp observations: Carson Wentz is really good
 

ill

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the Eagles built a good team last year. They went out and got receivers. They made trades for Ajayi and brought in Blount. They had one of the best lines, both on offense and defense.

A lot of credit goes to who was taking the snaps, but they also gave the QB just about everything he needed to win.
 

DutchBird

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or would they have done better? If you are easily able to view alternate realities where Dak doesn't do as good without his OL "roadgrating" then you should be able to take a look a Foles under center all season.

Huh? I do not understand your point here.

Dak not playing behind a road-grating O-line and being without a super RB to lean on is not an alternate reality, it is what we saw last season. And Dak did not handle it well.

We have seen Wentz with a leaky O-line, and no weapons on offense. And he did better than Dak did.

Foles in for the whole of last season, no, would not have worked. Because, based on the past (and that means even the 27 TD -2 INT season under Chip Kelly), Foles would never have been able to sustain the level of performance he showed during the play-offs. We all saw how mediocre to outright bad he was at the end of the regular season. I think his true level would have been somewhere in between those two extremes (roughly 2/3 towards the 'good Foles'), which would IMHO not have been good enough to get the Eagles HFA, with the schedule they had. Would they have won the division? Probably. But they would have lost one or two more games along the way, and thus lost HFA. And without HFA, the Eagles most likely would not have made it to the Super Bowl.
 

DutchBird

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You said Dak winning his first year was because of those around him. Foles winning in the playoffs though was solely because he played out of his mind.

You gave no credit to one QB and all the credit to another. Despite the fact we saw the Eagles getting the #1 spot even before Foles was under center, so you have incontrovertible proof that those around him had a lot more to do with the success than "Foles playing out of his mind".

Now you seem to be taking my position to the two extremes. I never said I gave no credit to the QB. Saying a QB is not able to carry the team, but someone who works extremely well as a complementary piece does not automatically mean that that QB gets no credit. For one, he deserves a lot of credit for making good use of the opportunities his role in the system offers, and fulfilling his role as well as he does.

And where did I say Foles winning the Super Bowl was solely because he played out of his mind? Nowhere. Hell, I even made clear the difference the players surrounding Wentz (in the 2016 and the 2017 season) made for Wentz and the results he achieved. That sure helped Foles out a lot.
 

fordman84

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Foles was awesome
Wentz was awesome

Combined they went 16-2 in games they started and/or finished. The eagles were blowing the fuck outta teams with Wentz in there. With Foles the eagles blew the fuck out of the Vikings in the NFC championship.

Without Wentz' play I don't think the eagles get HFT. Most notably probably losing to the Rams. After that all we had to was beat the shitty Giants and Raiders, both games which we struggled.

Honestly this eagles team should go down as one of the best teams in nfl history.

False
 

fordman84

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Huh? I do not understand your point here.

Dak not playing behind a road-grating O-line and being without a super RB to lean on is not an alternate reality, it is what we saw last season. And Dak did not handle it well.

We have seen Wentz with a leaky O-line, and no weapons on offense. And he did better than Dak did.

Foles in for the whole of last season, no, would not have worked. Because, based on the past (and that means even the 27 TD -2 INT season under Chip Kelly), Foles would never have been able to sustain the level of performance he showed during the play-offs. We all saw how mediocre to outright bad he was at the end of the regular season. I think his true level would have been somewhere in between those two extremes (roughly 2/3 towards the 'good Foles'), which would IMHO not have been good enough to get the Eagles HFA, with the schedule they had. Would they have won the division? Probably. But they would have lost one or two more games along the way, and thus lost HFA. And without HFA, the Eagles most likely would not have made it to the Super Bowl.

So you are incapable of not being a biased homer. Noted.
 

fordman84

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Now you seem to be taking my position to the two extremes. I never said I gave no credit to the QB. Saying a QB is not able to carry the team, but someone who works extremely well as a complementary piece does not automatically mean that that QB gets no credit. For one, he deserves a lot of credit for making good use of the opportunities his role in the system offers, and fulfilling his role as well as he does.

And where did I say Foles winning the Super Bowl was solely because he played out of his mind? Nowhere. Hell, I even made clear the difference the players surrounding Wentz (in the 2016 and the 2017 season) made for Wentz and the results he achieved. That sure helped Foles out a lot.

The difference between the Eagles being one-and-done and the Eagles winning it all was Foles just exploding from the start of the 2nd half against Atlanta onwards.

That is what you said. Without Foles playing out of his mind, you don't win the SB.

And yes, you gave no credit to Dak for the system around him. And you give full credit to Foles, despite proof of the system around him.
 
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