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Reds H of F

JohnU

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Bristol gets a nod, though his contributions are -- to me -- a matter of intangibles, such as, did he actually help "create" the BRM or did he just have good ballplayers that only succeeded after he was replaced? Managing for 3 years and winning nothing ... sorry, no cigar.

Norman ... a good pitcher who happened to be on a team that couldn't lose. You could make a case for 15 other guys who pitched in the 60s and 70s. Freddy was one of my favorites but he's not a H of F'er.

I guess you gotta appease the old people who are now in their 70s or 80s.

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CINCINNATI -- Starting pitcher Fred Norman and manager Dave Bristol will join Adam Dunn to complete the Cincinnati Reds Hall of Fame's Induction Class of 2018.

Norman was a mainstay of the Big Red Machine's starting rotation from 1973-79 and recorded double-digit victory totals in each of his seven seasons in a Reds uniform.

Bristol was a major contributor to the creation of the Big Red Machine and managed the Reds from 1966-69.

Bristol and Norman were selected by the Hall's Veterans Committee, which is comprised of Hall of Famers, Reds executives, Hall of Fame board members, baseball historians and media members.
 

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As the years go by I'm sure it becomes increasingly difficult for the Veterans Committee to find worthy candidates that are still alive. Hard to sell HOF weekend tickets posthumously.

Dave Bristol wouldn't appear to be a candidate on his MLB managerial career alone, but he was a very successful minor league manager for the Reds prior to the MLB promotion. He would have played a role in developing a lot of that talent that Sparky inherited. Should his time in the Reds minor league system matter? I don't know.

Fred Norman had a nice run with the BRM. Never a star, but consistently a 10+ game winner with a respectable 3.43 ERA. I think a lot of fans would give a guy like Bronson Arroyo the nod and his numbers (IMO) are inferior to Freddys. Are there players more deserving? I couldn't tell you.
 

JohnU

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If Bristol is being lauded for his work as a scout, minor league coach, manager ... that's fine. There may be other candidates who are more worthy. I know he seemed to be around forever after Hutch's time was over.

Norman isn't a dealbreaker, just that I can't fully envision why he has been plucked from the basket.

Yeah, you could be right -- the best players of our time are now nearly 80 years old.
It's the 'our time' part that probably ought to be in the Hall of Fame.
 

eburg5000

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I'll bet Mario Soto didn't vote for Bristol. I remember when Bristol was a 3rd base coach for the Phillies. Soto was on the mound and Bristol was baiting him the whole game, and he really got into Soto's head. All most ended up in a brawl. Soto was so upset he couldn't get the ball over the plate. and they had to take him out early.
 

JohnU

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We may generally lose sight of the Reds H of F and what it actually is intended to do -- that is, to continue to spur interest in the team's history and traditions. So it may be less a matter of whether a player is worthy than a matter of the Reds churning conversation about the era the guy played in and some notable moments.

Cooperstown, on the other hand, lets its record stand by itself.

I agree that as years go by, trying to attach new interest to the great Reds teams will be difficult. The players already have been honored in manifold ways and there isn't much after that until the peculiar wire-to-wire team that's worth bragging about. I suppose you could pluck another guy off the 60s or 70s teams ... the 60s were not a terrible decade for the Reds.

Since the team has moved into GABP, they have little to show that hasn't been exploited already.

If you take out the obvious greats like Eric Davis, Browning, Larkin, the great 8, and some guys from the 90s ... like rentals Gant, Mitchell, Vaughn ... who's really worthy of the Reds H of F?

Votto and Cueto are the current active players who are outside this question.

Arroyo and Harang are likely to be included. Hell, maybe even David Ross.

Brandon Phillips is likely. You could make a case for Chapman, albeit slim.
 

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Aaron Harang probably doesn't have the popularity with the fans that Bronson Arroyo enjoyed. Thus he may not make the short list which isn't that short when the bar is lowered to it's current level. Will he eventually get in through the Veterans Committee, maybe based on the previous mention of where the height of the bar is.

Votto, Cueto, Phillips, Bruce, and Chapman all will probably be included at some point. Chapman is probably more popular and memorable than most relievers you'll ever see at GABP. He has the dominant numbers to imprest as well.

The fan vote is more like All Star voting minus the people voting from a cave in Afghanistan.
 

JohnU

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Harang did some very nice things in the social world in Cincy. I think he will be marketed that way. I don't think he has a grear on-field career, no better than a dozen other guys of this century ... dunno. I'd pick Harang ahead of Bronson on that level. For fan fun, Bronson is way ahead of the curve. He's the kid who got caught smoking in the boys room.
 

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If we're judging it on who gave more back to the community hands down it's Aaron Harang. If it's who the ladies liked more it's Bronson Arroyo. If it's performance.....
Keep lowering that bar.
 

JohnU

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If we're judging it on who gave more back to the community hands down it's Aaron Harang. If it's who the ladies liked more it's Bronson Arroyo. If it's performance.....
Keep lowering that bar.
Well the Reds H of F is about fan churn so as long as they got room for the plaque, they'll keep lowering the bar.
I think they can add a couple of contributors to the community in connection with the team but nobody is going to show up at the big fiesta to honor Boney Maroney, who raked Knothole diamonds for 52 years.
 

eburg5000

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I know, to the Reds higher ups they want tp do this every year to have a big crowd come to the ball park. But this IMO should be done no more than once every 5 years. Maybe even 10 years
I have never paid that much attention. but I think the choose the inductees ever year. After a while teams run out of great players and it gets watered down. I guess I'm just stating the obvious,
 

JohnU

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I know, to the Reds higher ups they want tp do this every year to have a big crowd come to the ball park. But this IMO should be done no more than once every 5 years. Maybe even 10 years
I have never paid that much attention. but I think the choose the inductees ever year. After a while teams run out of great players and it gets watered down. I guess I'm just stating the obvious,
Looking at the list of guys who are in the Hall, it's clear there is no real criteria. Jerry Lynch, for example. I love the guy for what he did in '61, which is the highlight Reds year of my life. But he was not good enough to play regularly and became very good as a pinch hitter. Outside of a short window, almost nobody remembers him.
Same with Brooks Lawrence.
But yeah, it's about the fans and our love for the team and the great moments. I really didn't have a problem with most of the guys on that list. Chris Sabo kinda surprised me. But he's part of Wire to Wire and that's important.
Talk to a thousand fans and you'll get 300 versions of the facts on any Reds team.
A guy who should be in the Hall is Jim Brosnan. If you let Chapman in, you crawl right over one of the guys who made relief pitching an art form. I'd mention Hersh Freeman from '56 but I doubt anybody remembers him.
 

JohnU

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Speaking of 1956, i recall this guy being a rookie. 18 years old.
Quite impactual career.
Should be in the Hall of Fame.
As an aside, if he'd stayed with the Reds, all 3 outfielders would have been from the same high school at about the same time.

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For the most part I've been talking about a players chance of election based on their initial eligibilty. It's conducted by a combination of a fan vote, Reds alumni and votes from select media members. Anytime you let the fans decide it becomes a popularity contest. Sabo would be an example of a player that was pretty popular. Good player and equally as quirky.

The Fred Norman and Dave Bristol types are getting in through the Veteran's Committee. Different criteria in play there.
 

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Speaking of 1956, i recall this guy being a rookie. 18 years old.
Quite impactual career.
Should be in the Hall of Fame.
As an aside, if he'd stayed with the Reds, all 3 outfielders would have been from the same high school at about the same time.
You could make an argument for all three of those guys to be in Cooperstown.
 

JohnU

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For the most part I've been talking about a players chance of election based on their initial eligibilty. It's conducted by a combination of a fan vote, Reds alumni and votes from select media members. Anytime you let the fans decide it becomes a popularity contest. Sabo would be an example of a player that was pretty popular. Good player and equally as quirky.

The Fred Norman and Dave Bristol types are getting in through the Veteran's Committee. Different criteria in play there.
In Bristol's case, certainly a different lens. Fans would never even conceive of that sort of criteria. I think the conversation surrounding Norman might be ... what was the Reds pitching like before he was added? And could they have won without him? But we have Borbon in the Hall and not Brosnan.
 

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I was only 5 years old in 1961 and he retired in 1963, so Jim Brosnan isn't a player I have memories of seeing play.

Looking at the numbers Jim Brosnan's best run was in Cincinnati. He played three full seasons and parts of 1959 and 1963. It would have probably helped to have a little more longevity with the team. I think relievers generally have an uphill battle earning respect in terms of accolades. The further we go back in time the less they're appreciated.

Longevity helps and that's one of two things Pedro Borbon had going for him. He's the Reds career leader in appearances and played during the BRM era.
 

JohnU

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I am looking for at Brosnan's contributions to baseball with his writing as well as having brought the Reds out of a very long period of failure. Again, one could argue that Jerry Lynch is nothing more than a 4th outfielder who hit a few memorable home runs. I'm not on a soapbox about this, just that the criteria seems somewhat subjective when it's necessary and more objective when it's obvious. You don't have to argue that Bench belongs, but you can argue that Jose Rijo came along at the right time or would be just another good pitcher with no portfolio. I don't think the Reds H of F is doing the wrong thing but if the conversation began about who's in, who's not in and why on both questions, would Brosnan's achievements carry any nods of approval? Clearly those who decide have chosen to exclude him. I'm not terribly sad about that.
 

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I'd say if the Reds had won the 1961 WS the players on that team not named Frank Robinson would be talked about more. I think that's true for some of the players from the 1970 and 1972 Pennant winning teams. A guy like the "Big Bopper" doesn't get his due for how good he was in Cincinnati. He's mentioned more as a footnote in the trade that brought the Reds the final pieces of the BRM.
 

JohnU

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I'd say if the Reds had won the 1961 WS the players on that team not named Frank Robinson would be talked about more. I think that's true for some of the players from the 1970 and 1972 Pennant winning teams. A guy like the "Big Bopper" doesn't get his due for how good he was in Cincinnati. He's mentioned more as a footnote in the trade that brought the Reds the final pieces of the BRM.
61 Reds were just considered another piece of fodder in the glamorous world of Maris and Mantle.
You have to be about my age to even remember how amazing it was for them to win that pennant. It was one of the more unforgettable summers. Staying up (or trying) to listen to games on the West Coast ... there wasn't much TV.
 
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