options at qb other then KC in 2018

[Buffalo_Nickel_1]

i like it how people bring up history of the draft but they never bring up skins won 3 superbowl without a big time qb or in today times franchise qbs the key really to skins 3 superbowls where please feel in the blank...... skinsdad , sharkman(aka cap wizard) in my opinion to win a superbowl you need 1, good running 2. good oline 3,good defense now history shows you dont need a franchise qb to win a superbowl so why not say good bye to kirk take that money invest in the 1,2,3 that at listed

 

[j_y19]

i like it how people bring up history of the draft but they never bring up skins won 3 superbowl without a big time qb or in today times franchise qbs the key really to skins 3 superbowls where please feel in the blank...... skinsdad , sharkman(aka cap wizard) in my opinion to win a superbowl you need 1, good running 2. good oline 3,good defense now history shows you dont need a franchise qb to win a superbowl so why not say good bye to kirk take that money invest in the 1,2,3 that at listed

First, its a different game then the last time we won a SB. Passing is much more important and the integral part of the offense. Hence, the Qb is much more important. Second, who will be the QB if we were to cut KC loose? Colt? That 3rd string soon to be out of the league scrub you keep harping about? To borrow your mantra, how many games have they won? Im not sure between them they have won 10 games in their careers.

Coach, i'm begging you.....please use some punctuation in your posts. They are impossible to read as they just ramble on.

 

[gkekoa]

First, its a different game then the last time we won a SB. Passing is much more important and the integral part of the offense. Hence, the Qb is much more important. Second, who will be the QB if we were to cut KC loose? Colt? That 3rd string soon to be out of the league scrub you keep harping about? To borrow your mantra, how many games have they won? Im not sure between them they have won 10 games in their careers.

Coach, i'm begging you.....please use some punctuation in your posts. They are impossible to read as they just ramble on.

I am impressed you could read his post. I tried to give him pointer. I even showed him what a period, question mark, and comma look like. I can usually make out what he is saying but that last one, nope.

 

[Sharkinva]

i like it how people bring up history of the draft but they never bring up skins won 3 superbowl without a big time qb or in today times franchise qbs the key really to skins 3 superbowls where please feel in the blank...... skinsdad , sharkman(aka cap wizard) in my opinion to win a superbowl you need 1, good running 2. good oline 3,good defense now history shows you dont need a franchise qb to win a superbowl so why not say good bye to kirk take that money invest in the 1,2,3 that at listed

Coach... I think you are confused. No you dont need an ELITE QB to win if the team is solid enough. But you do NEED a solid QB which is what Thiesman, Williams and Rypster were... and what Kirk is.

Now in todays NFL, as we have seen, QBs dont come cheap. History says between 60-80% of Rookie QBs dont even become solid much less elite.

Its foolish to say we can easily replace a solid QB as long as we build up the rest of the team, because the reality is, and history proves... if you dont at least have a solid QB, you WASTE time and draft resources trying to FIND at minimum a solid QB.

Signing Cousins long term will allow us to use the DRAFT to add those key players early and at a cheaper cost. Where as we could use the cap space to try and fill the oster with FA's but in the end if you dont have a solid QB, as we have seen... it dont matter how many all pro players you buy.

 

[gkekoa]

Coach... I think you are confused. No you dont need an ELITE QB to win if the team is solid enough. But you do NEED a solid QB which is what Thiesman, Williams and Rypster were... and what Kirk is.

Now in todays NFL, as we have seen, QBs dont come cheap. History says between 60-80% of Rookie QBs dont even become solid much less elite.

Its foolish to say we can easily replace a solid QB as long as we build up the rest of the team, because the reality is, and history proves... if you dont at least have a solid QB, you WASTE time and draft resources trying to FIND at minimum a solid QB.

Signing Cousins long term will allow us to use the DRAFT to add those key players early and at a cheaper cost. Where as we could use the cap space to try and fill the oster with FA's but in the end if you dont have a solid QB, as we have seen... it dont matter how many all pro players you buy.

Give it up. The guy thinks Sudfeld is just as good and it is all about the scheme.

 

[skinsdad62]

coach those super bowl teams had good defenses and those qb played well . it has been 20 years since we had a qb who can play the position well and you want to give him up for the king of the walmart baggers

 

[ehb5]

We have had this conversation before.

The problem with the move on as soon as you can is the risk of getting into the Browns/Redskins realm of always looking for the elite QB at the risk of the rest of the roster. How many good to great players has each team passed on because every couple of years they are drafting a QB. Even take out the lets trade up and really secure the elite QB move....

Look back at both teams draft history. Look at who they took at QB and when... then look at the D-lineman, O-lineman and Pass rush guys they passed on because they didnt even have a competent QB. I agree Smith, Cousins and dalton will likely never be Rogers. But I wouldnt get rid of them simply to go back into the hunt for Moby Dick.

If you need a better QB then yea you better be looking for one.

Put it this way. If we ran it your way and had Alex Smith for the past 8 years and spent all 8 of those years as focused as possible on every other position. You know how many SBs we'd have to show for it? A big fat zero.

Moving on from Smith also has nothing to do with sinking 4 drafts worth of picks into QB. Maybe you take 1 QB this year in round 1 and you take some flyers on a few vets that come available cheaply.

If you want you can even keep Smith as long as you realize that 1) you arent going anywhere with him and 2) youre paying him $15 mil a year to not be going any where with him.

 

[ehb5]

Doesn't make sense until you know you have his equal or a better QB. If and when that happens then I agree that is the move to make. Seeing as Mahomes has a cap friendly number or at least the next 4 years they do not need to move out of the Smith business even if Mahomes replaces him as the starter.

I disagree. If the Chiefs wanna trot out Smith for a while to try and bring Mahomes along slowly thats fine. But its a wasted year essentially. At some point you have to find out what you have. And their paying $15 mil this year for Smith. I think they could use that money a lot better. They wouldve been better off moving on completely and pumping that money and resources elsewhere.

If Mahomes replace him as a starter theyd be paying 15 mil a year for a backup. How would that be ok?

 

[Sharkinva]

If you need a better QB then yea you better be looking for one.

Put it this way. If we ran it your way and had Alex Smith for the past 8 years and spent all 8 of those years as focused as possible on every other position. You know how many SBs we'd have to show for it? A big fat zero.

Moving on from Smith also has nothing to do with sinking 4 drafts worth of picks into QB. Maybe you take 1 QB this year in round 1 and you take some flyers on a few vets that come available cheaply.

If you want you can even keep Smith as long as you realize that 1) you arent going anywhere with him and 2) youre paying him $15 mil a year to not be going any where with him.

By keeping Smith they have not gone BACKWARDS, they have not risked making the uber trade in the quest for elite.

You would agree that while the Chiefs have not won a Lombardi, over all they have been a better team than the Redskins over that time right?? And alot of this has to do with them NOT being in a position to constantly throw draft picks at the QB spot.

 

[ehb5]

By keeping Smith they have not gone BACKWARDS, they have not risked making the uber trade in the quest for elite.

You would agree that while the Chiefs have not won a Lombardi, over all they have been a better team than the Redskins over that time right?? And alot of this has to do with them NOT being in a position to constantly throw draft picks at the QB spot.

You dont get to treat the uber trade as part of moving on from Smith. Those are seperate decisions. The optimal path is move on from Smith but dont make an uber trade. Very simple.

I think youre too worried about going backwards at all. You need a better QB. If you have to go backwards to find that so be it.

Of course you dont HAVE to go back to find one either. They couldve saved money on Smith reinvested it elsewhere, paid a journeyman to game manage and continued building the rest of the team while looking for their franchise QB.

These things arent as black and white as you make them out to be.

Sure the Cheifs have been better. And what has that gotten them? Jack shit.

We've been awful for most of recent memory and still might be in a better situation than them moving forward.

 

[Sharkinva]

You dont get to treat the uber trade as part of moving on from Smith. Those are seperate decisions. The optimal path is move on from Smith but dont make an uber trade. Very simple.

I think youre too worried about going backwards at all. You need a better QB. If you have to go backwards to find that so be it.

Of course you dont HAVE to go back to find one either. They couldve saved money on Smith reinvested it elsewhere, paid a journeyman to game manage and continued building the rest of the team while looking for their franchise QB.

These things arent as black and white as you make them out to be.

Sure the Cheifs have been better. And what has that gotten them? Jack shit.

We've been awful for most of recent memory and still might be in a better situation than them moving forward.

Fine, lets take the uber trade out of it.

Looking at the Skins and Browns history, how much talent do you think we have PASSED on because we were simply looking for a competent QB, much less elite. Now yes they could have saved Money by getting Rid of Smith. But odds are THAT puts them a step back and wastes a season or more of other players viable shelf life.

You say Smith has gotten them nothing because they have not won a Lombardi. I say if you have a QB able to at minimum get you into the playoffs on at least a semi consistent basis, you at least have a starting point.

And by the way, in the case of this team it is pretty cut and dry. If we dont have a competent QB the front office has shown to be more than willing and able to mortgage the rest of the roster in an attempt to find not just competent.. but elite.

 

[ehb5]

Fine, lets take the uber trade out of it.

Looking at the Skins and Browns history, how much talent do you think we have PASSED on because we were simply looking for a competent QB, much less elite. Now yes they could have saved Money by getting Rid of Smith. But odds are THAT puts them a step back and wastes a season or more of other players viable shelf life.

You say Smith has gotten them nothing because they have not won a Lombardi. I say if you have a QB able to at minimum get you into the playoffs on at least a semi consistent basis, you at least have a starting point.

And by the way, in the case of this team it is pretty cut and dry. If we dont have a competent QB the front office has shown to be more than willing and able to mortgage the rest of the roster in an attempt to find not just competent.. but elite.

Im too lazy to do this with the Browns but with the Skins we would be looking at (at best)...

2002 1st (Ramsey)- Andre Gurode, C
2005 3rd (Campbell)- Evan Mathis, G
2006 1st (Campbell)- Johnathan Joseph, CB
2006 4th (Campbell)- Brandon Marshall, WR
2010 2nd (McNabb) - Rob Gronkowski, TE
2011 4th (McNabb) - Cecil Shorts, WR ?? (Idk this there wasnt much to pick from here lol)
2012 1st (Griffin) - Luke Kuechly, LB
2012 2nd (Griffin) - Alshon Jeffery, WR
2013 1st (Griffin) - Desmond Trufant, CB
2014 1st (Griffin) - Khalil Mack, LB/DE

Ok. That is a SHIT ton of talent. BUT...there are several caveats. For one this team has no quarterback. Apparently we'd just be starting Mark Brunell until he was liquefied on the field from a hit at the age of 47. Or we'd be scavenging the dumpsters looking for bargain FAs. But as much talent as this is over those 12 years...this team wouldnt have been all that good thanks to not having a damn QB. Not to mention assuming all else stays the same (a weird assumption but one I kind of have to make)...some of these guys are pretty damn old by the time Cousins comes around and starts playing well. And of course the most important thing to remember is that this is a RIDICULOUSLY unrealistic and optimistic best case scenario.

Now... what the picks actually were (or the pick immediately following if it wasnt a traded pick)...

2002 1st (Ramsey)- Jabar Gaffney, WR
2005 3rd (Campbell)- Karl Paymah, CB
2006 1st (Campbell)- Manny Lawson, LB
2006 4th (Campbell)- Brandon Marshall, WR
2010 2nd (McNabb) - Nate Allen, S
2011 4th (McNabb) - Luke Stocker, TE
2012 1st (Griffin) - Morris Claiborne, CB
2012 2nd (Griffin) - Janoris Jenkins, CB
2013 1st (Griffin) - Desmond Trufant, CB
2014 1st (Griffin) - Greg Robinson, OT

Thats a lot worse. A few pretty good players and a handful of crap. To be expected. But certainly not enough talent to turn the skins into SB contenders with a meh QB like Smith at the helm. (Although again in this scenario we're technically still starting Mark Brunell and his walker)

The worst case scenario would be... you get nothing. A whole lot of Greg Robinsons and Karl Paymahs. Not really very realistic either but since I gave you the super optimistic example its good to keep in mind.

Whats my point? Yes pursuing a QB takes resources but if you need one than thats what you have to do. You dont beat the system by not investing at QB.


Now does getting rid of Smith set you back? Maybe. But lets say after a year of Smith KC realized he wasnt gonna cut it and moved on. I think its fair to say they receive a 2nd round pick for him in a trade at the time. They take that 2nd rounder and use it to continue building their team. They sign FAs with that 15 million. And they look for a QB who they can build around. This doesnt sound like being set back. That team wont explode without Smith. They'll continue to build and be better for it in the long run. THAT should be your starting point.

 

[Sharkinva]

Dude.. Im impressed you did that level of research. But by talent we missed out on, Im not limiting it to just the guy that was picked, or the guy that was picked right after we took the QB or our pick was used.

Im also pointing out that there were likely players (good players) that we didnt or couldnt make a move on because we were for all intents paralyzed by the need to get a QB. (Which by the way you pointed this out in your first list) And for the better part of he last 20 years this team has more often than not been locked into the hunt for the QB to the exclusion of all else in alot of cases.

You preach that the cap space could be used elsewhere, and yet discount the fact that this team has continuously botched it on the QB front.

Yes we would all LOVE for Bruce to draft the Next Brady, Rogers, Manning or (Insert who you think is elite here), but history shows that the hunt for the elite QB has more often than not failed and also set this team into a perpetual downward spiral. We have a good QB by most measures... but again he isnt good enough I guess. So we should consider ditching him to go back into the cycle that we have been in the last 20 years.

 

[ehb5]

Dude.. Im impressed you did that level of research. But by talent we missed out on, Im not limiting it to just the guy that was picked, or the guy that was picked right after we took the QB or our pick was used.

Im also pointing out that there were likely players (good players) that we didnt or couldnt make a move on because we were for all intents paralyzed by the need to get a QB. (Which by the way you pointed this out in your first list) And for the better part of he last 20 years this team has more often than not been locked into the hunt for the QB to the exclusion of all else in alot of cases.

You preach that the cap space could be used elsewhere, and yet discount the fact that this team has continuously botched it on the QB front.

Yes we would all LOVE for Bruce to draft the Next Brady, Rogers, Manning or (Insert who you think is elite here), but history shows that the hunt for the elite QB has more often than not failed and also set this team into a perpetual downward spiral. We have a good QB by most measures... but again he isnt good enough I guess. So we should consider ditching him to go back into the cycle that we have been in the last 20 years.

I was bored. Sure as shit not going through that for the Browns though lol.

The point is...talent was left on the table...but that talent wasnt enough without a QB.

As for your last paragraph. Keep in mind this started asa post about Kansas City. Its my team building belief/philosophy. It does not mean I am saying we should move on from Cousins.

 

[Sportster 72]

I disagree. If the Chiefs wanna trot out Smith for a while to try and bring Mahomes along slowly thats fine. But its a wasted year essentially. At some point you have to find out what you have. And their paying $15 mil this year for Smith. I think they could use that money a lot better. They wouldve been better off moving on completely and pumping that money and resources elsewhere.

If Mahomes replace him as a starter theyd be paying 15 mil a year for a backup. How would that be ok?

I listen to NFL Network on the radio and several former GMS (successful ones) said not ONE QB drafted this year is ready to play in the NFL this year. Maybe late just to see how they do. But maybe you know more than them.

 

[Krusheasy]

I listen to NFL Network on the radio and several former GMS (successful ones) said not ONE QB drafted this year is ready to play in the NFL this year. Maybe late just to see how they do. But maybe you know more than them.

not sure what the conversation going on is about ...

but my reaction after reading you comment is ...

i trust Reeds draft record ...

and would want him to be GM for my franchise

 

[Sportster 72]

What does that have to do with ditching Smith so Mahomes can play?

 

[Krusheasy]

What does that have to do with ditching Smith so Mahomes can play?

nothing ...

like i said ... jumping in not knowing what you guys are talking about

but if i recall ... smith was ready to be ditched 5 years ago

before Reed came along & salvaged what would have gone down as one of the most disappointing #1 pick in history

 

[Sportster 72]

BTW I am not a Smith fan, I just believe in the old statement "don't throw the baby out with the bath water" .... keep the bath water until the baby can walk, talk and crap on its own .... then toss the water.

One of the things Sty advocated and I believe this helped Cousins and hurt Griffin is Cousins got some time to learn whereas Griffin got thrown right into the fire. It was great until he didn't have the knowledge to play in a pro style offense.

 

[Krusheasy]

BTW I am not a Smith fan, I just believe in the old statement "don't throw the baby out with the bath water" .... keep the bath water until the baby can walk, talk and crap on its own .... then toss the water.

.

he was the number one draft pick in 2005 ...

i just looked it up

he is more of a grandpaw then a baby