NWO do-over

[The Q]

Funny stuff! But it really wasn't quite like that. WWF was on the verge of bankruptcy. A few more months with better control and storylines and WCW would have probably won!

Then Vince won out and essentially buried and screwed 90%+ of the WCW roster. Basically The Giant, Jericho, Mysterio and Booker T did well and everyone else was at best a disappointment. So depressing to think about what a waste it was!

Jericho and giant did ok because they left before the sale.

Sting’s fear of joining wwe was completely justified.

 

[The Q]

Funny stuff! But it really wasn't quite like that. WWF was on the verge of bankruptcy. A few more months with better control and storylines and WCW would have probably won!

Then Vince won out and essentially buried and screwed 90%+ of the WCW roster. Basically The Giant, Jericho, Mysterio and Booker T did well and everyone else was at best a disappointment. So depressing to think about what a waste it was!

Yeah wwe only survived because of the curtain call at msg.

If HHH wins the 96 KOTR I bet wwe goes under. Austin’s rise and feud with hart basically saved them

 

[jakedog56]

Jericho and giant did ok because they left before the sale.

Sting’s fear of joining wwe was completely justified.

Yeah. Look what they did to Sting 20 years later. You would think they would have given him a little respect.

It must have been one helluva a payday!

 

[The Q]

Yeah. Look what they did to Sting 20 years later. You would think they would have given him a little respect.

It must have been one helluva a payday!

That was pathetic.

A clearly inferior talent gets the one up for tapping the boss’s daughter.

 

[OregonDucks]

The issue with that though is it would've overexposed NWO to a greater degree, and you would've needed to expand the NWO anyways because having a show every week centered around Hogan-Hall-Nash would've gotta stale/redundant.

True, but it did anyway. Overexposed is a great way to describe the NWO.

 

[wazzu31]

Funny stuff! But it really wasn't quite like that. WWF was on the verge of bankruptcy. A few more months with better control and storylines and WCW would have probably won!

Then Vince won out and essentially buried and screwed 90%+ of the WCW roster. Basically The Giant, Jericho, Mysterio and Booker T did well and everyone else was at best a disappointment. So depressing to think about what a waste it was!

But who really from WCW was there that you think would have become a star? Most of the good guys left in WCW that didn't get a semi push either had no personality, sucked in ring but had personality or had personal demons like Steiner, Bagwell and Co.

All the big name guys from WCW stayed home and collected millions as opposed to doing the dumb invasion angle.

 

[jakedog56]

But who really from WCW was there that you think would have become a star? Most of the good guys left in WCW that didn't get a semi push either had no personality, sucked in ring but had personality or had personal demons like Steiner, Bagwell and Co.

All the big name guys from WCW stayed home and collected millions as opposed to doing the dumb invasion angle.

They had plenty of talent who could have gotten pushes that didn't. For example: Bagwell was excellent at playing the top level henchman whose character/personality should have fit perfect into the attitude era but he was let go after one match! As you know, you can make someone a top level guy at your own whim. They have been pushing Reigns down everyone's throats for years now despite his lack of star power.

The point is that Vince let his ego get in the way of business. He should have taken advantage of the situation to build product and heat instead of squashing it to prove a point over a war he had already won.

 

[wazzu31]

They had plenty of talent who could have gotten pushes that didn't. For example: Bagwell was excellent at playing the top level henchman whose character/personality should have fit perfect into the attitude era but he was let go after one match! As you know, you can make someone a top level guy at your own whim. They have been pushing Reigns down everyone's throats for years now despite his lack of star power.

The point is that Vince let his ego get in the way of business. He should have taken advantage of the situation to build product and heat instead of squashing it to prove a point over a war he had already won.

I'm not questioning Vince's who played a part in how bad the invasion angle was but correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Bagwell have a drug problem? Same with Steiner, which are the only two that I think could've make the transition. Most of the others could've join Al Snow with J.O.B. squad.

 

[Inimical]

Are you guys are forgetting who got screwed the most by the invasion angle the blue meanie poor bastard got a heart attack from all the stress and dancing is ass off every night

 

[jakedog56]

I'm not questioning Vince's who played a part in how bad the invasion angle was but correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Bagwell have a drug problem? Same with Steiner, which are the only two that I think could've make the transition. Most of the others could've join Al Snow with J.O.B. squad.

Well, I haven't heard any specific stories in regards to Bagwell having drug issues but it is entirely possible knowing the WCW locker room. We do know he was on steroids but I don't think he was ever tested in WWE.

Besides, even if it were true, drug issues never stopped them from bringing in lots of guys with far worse issues.

If you wanted good workers, guys like Saturn and Kanyon were some of the best but were buried. DDP, Goldberg, Raven, etc were white hot but given bad storylines and buried.

They should have kept the companies completely seperated except for a small percentage of bleed over, and saved to big confrontations for PPVs. You could exchange talent as you wanted over time.

Anyway you look at it:
*WCW took the kayfabe too seriously and started believing their own b.s. hype. They could have saved them from themselves with just a little bit of constraint and being just a bit smarter.

*WWE botched the merger with their own egos. They could have been a little less vindictive and they would have had a much larger empire (see my notes on WCW already having a Vegas move in place) and presumably a better product today.

Egos and rampant stupidity shot themselves both in foot.

 

[wazzu31]

Well, I haven't heard any specific stories in regards to Bagwell having drug issues but it is entirely possible knowing the WCW locker room. We do know he was on steroids but I don't think he was ever tested in WWE.

Besides, even if it were true, drug issues never stopped them from bringing in lots of guys with far worse issues.

If you wanted good workers, guys like Saturn and Kanyon were some of the best but were buried. DDP, Goldberg, Raven, etc were white hot but given bad storylines and buried.

They should have kept the companies completely seperated except for a small percentage of bleed over, and saved to big confrontations for PPVs. You could exchange talent as you wanted over time.

Anyway you look at it:
*WCW took the kayfabe too seriously and started believing their own b.s. hype. They could have saved them from themselves with just a little bit of constraint and being just a bit smarter.

*WWE botched the merger with their own egos. They could have been a little less vindictive and they would have had a much larger empire (see my notes on WCW already having a Vegas move in place) and presumably a better product today.

Egos and rampant stupidity shot themselves both in foot.

See, I think Saturn and his type of guys were irrelevent in the attitude era because they didn't have a personality that could carry a storyline. Goldberg didn't get buried nor did DDP. Goldberg sucked in the ring and they had their Goldberg in Lesnar. Goldberg's biggest mistake in his career was sitting at home instead of going into the WWE right away and have matches with guys who could carry him. DDP was just too old and got hurt. His storyline didn't work sure, but the only reason IMO he really got over in WCW was because Sting didn't do that angle. To me, DDP's upside in WWE was the New Age Outlaws.

I guess I'll disagree with the WWE botched the merger. All the top guys had guaranteed contracts regardless and we're guaranteed money sitting at home and not working a more grueling schedule than they had.

And I still think WCW would be in business and won the war had they had anybody above Bischoff who cared about anything other than ratings. Once the internet got hot, alot of the tricks WCW did to win the ratings didn't work anymore and the WWE put on a more entertaining product for those who weren't wrestling fans. Wrestling was cool to watch for everyone during that era, prior and after you are looked down upon.

 

[jakedog56]

See, I think Saturn and his type of guys were irrelevent in the attitude era because they didn't have a personality that could carry a storyline. Goldberg didn't get buried nor did DDP. Goldberg sucked in the ring and they had their Goldberg in Lesnar. Goldberg's biggest mistake in his career was sitting at home instead of going into the WWE right away and have matches with guys who could carry him. DDP was just too old and got hurt. His storyline didn't work sure, but the only reason IMO he really got over in WCW was because Sting didn't do that angle. To me, DDP's upside in WWE was the New Age Outlaws.

I guess I'll disagree with the WWE botched the merger. All the top guys had guaranteed contracts regardless and we're guaranteed money sitting at home and not working a more grueling schedule than they had.

And I still think WCW would be in business and won the war had they had anybody above Bischoff who cared about anything other than ratings. Once the internet got hot, alot of the tricks WCW did to win the ratings didn't work anymore and the WWE put on a more entertaining product for those who weren't wrestling fans. Wrestling was cool to watch for everyone during that era, prior and after you are looked down upon.

I can see a lot of validity in your points but I don't always entirely agree with them.

*Yes, Saturn and Kanyon lacked big personalities but Kanyon was given nothing and Saturn was given a fucking mop! A FUCKING MOP!
Not big personalities? Give them a manager (that's what they are for) or, better yet, faction them up with Raven who had enough to carry everyone given the right opportunity (which he wasn't).
This stupidity continues to this day. Stroman is a monster heel but they should never give him a mic. He has the personality of a wet dishcloth in his promos. He was much better when that side of him was hidden (plus his stupid "Get these hands" catchphrase is apparently not only a reference to come fight, but also to masturbation! Lol! Morons!) You would think they would learn, but no.

*DDP was given a feud with Taker but all he did was job to him. The storyline was one of the worst of the time in that he was a masked stalker of Takers wife. WTF was that about?
DDP was an underdog face with a devastating finisher. He had tons of charisma (whether or not that type would have translated to the WWE crowd is debatable) so he should have been fighting heels, getting beat up, but overcoming the odds and pulling out victories along the way. He could do that. He was proven successful at that. They royally screwed him the only question is whether it was intentional or just stupidity.

*Goldberg didn't do well in the ring but Lesnar also needs to be accountable for that feud. It seemed like a dream match up but it was a poor decision at best. You could have easily gone in another direction.
A similar situation was Kronik coming in, immediately given a match with Taker and Kane, and then essentially disregarded when it didn't go well. Taker and Kane were not held responsible for the match quality, only Kronik was. Not to mention that Adams had had a few good runs in WWF before, and Clarke had had a decent one (not great, but not horrible). WWE essentially said the match was not good, it was all their fault, and that they needed to go down to the minors or take their release (which obviously never was suggested to Taker or Kane). Both were solid, respected veterans who knew how to work. The fact that they were never given any benefit of the doubt is pretty ridiculous.

So maybe it wasn't conscious? But I do think that regardless of intention, given relatively equal circumstances the WWE guy invariably was put over the WCW guy regardless of what the better outcome for the individuals and company was. That is why I use the term "buried" which might be a bit strong but let's just say that they were not always given equal opportunity. You have to admit it was quite biased at times.

 

[The Q]

I can see a lot of validity in your points but I don't always entirely agree with them.

*Yes, Saturn and Kanyon lacked big personalities but Kanyon was given nothing and Saturn was given a fucking mop! A FUCKING MOP!
Not big personalities? Give them a manager (that's what they are for) or, better yet, faction them up with Raven who had enough to carry everyone given the right opportunity (which he wasn't).
This stupidity continues to this day. Stroman is a monster heel but they should never give him a mic. He has the personality of a wet dishcloth in his promos. He was much better when that side of him was hidden (plus his stupid "Get these hands" catchphrase is apparently not only a reference to come fight, but also to masturbation! Lol! Morons!) You would think they would learn, but no.

*DDP was given a feud with Taker but all he did was job to him. The storyline was one of the worst of the time in that he was a masked stalker of Takers wife. WTF was that about?
DDP was an underdog face with a devastating finisher. He had tons of charisma (whether or not that type would have translated to the WWE crowd is debatable) so he should have been fighting heels, getting beat up, but overcoming the odds and pulling out victories along the way. He could do that. He was proven successful at that. They royally screwed him the only question is whether it was intentional or just stupidity.

*Goldberg didn't do well in the ring but Lesnar also needs to be accountable for that feud. It seemed like a dream match up but it was a poor decision at best. You could have easily gone in another direction.
A similar situation was Kronik coming in, immediately given a match with Taker and Kane, and then essentially disregarded when it didn't go well. Taker and Kane were not held responsible for the match quality, only Kronik was. Not to mention that Adams had had a few good runs in WWF before, and Clarke had had a decent one (not great, but not horrible). WWE essentially said the match was not good, it was all their fault, and that they needed to go down to the minors or take their release (which obviously never was suggested to Taker or Kane). Both were solid, respected veterans who knew how to work. The fact that they were never given any benefit of the doubt is pretty ridiculous.

So maybe it wasn't conscious? But I do think that regardless of intention, given relatively equal circumstances the WWE guy invariably was put over the WCW guy regardless of what the better outcome for the individuals and company was. That is why I use the term "buried" which might be a bit strong but let's just say that they were not always given equal opportunity. You have to admit it was quite biased at times.

And again sting saw that coming, and eventually it happened to him anyway. I kinda wish he never joined wwe so they couldn’t dog him like that.

 

[jakedog56]

And again sting saw that coming, and eventually it happened to him anyway. I kinda wish he never joined wwe so they couldn’t dog him like that.

So true. Sting avoided it until the end when he just said screw it and took the bank. Still surprised that he agreed to it going down like that but I guess he didn't care at that point.

 

[The Q]

So true. Sting avoided it until the end when he just said screw it and took the bank. Still surprised that he agreed to it going down like that but I guess he didn't care at that point.

Who knows. Maybe he needed the money.

 

[DefCONNOne]

Keep the NWO smaller, like you said.

one of the biggest things is not make WCW look like complete idiots every week.

Letting everything be 8 on 1 unless Sting showed up with a baseball bat is somewhat silly.

Not let the talent (Nash, Arn Anderson) do the booking.

Not screwed with the ending of 97 Starrcade and let Sting give the people what they want and beat Hogan's traitorous butt all over that arena.

NEVER done the NWO wolfpac and hollywood.

Letting some of the younger talent get more involved in the feud would've been a great way to get their careers moving forward.

...and rob us of that swank NWO Wolfpack theme? BLASPHEMY!!!

 

[The Q]

...and rob us of that swank NWO Wolfpack theme? BLASPHEMY!!!

I know...I know....but man what I loved most was how serious it took the out of the ring stuff.

Once they did that...and the Latino World Order and all that crap....the magic of the NWO was just gone.

 

[The Q]

Well, I haven't heard any specific stories in regards to Bagwell having drug issues but it is entirely possible knowing the WCW locker room. We do know he was on steroids but I don't think he was ever tested in WWE.

Besides, even if it were true, drug issues never stopped them from bringing in lots of guys with far worse issues.

If you wanted good workers, guys like Saturn and Kanyon were some of the best but were buried. DDP, Goldberg, Raven, etc were white hot but given bad storylines and buried.

They should have kept the companies completely seperated except for a small percentage of bleed over, and saved to big confrontations for PPVs. You could exchange talent as you wanted over time.

Anyway you look at it:
*WCW took the kayfabe too seriously and started believing their own b.s. hype. They could have saved them from themselves with just a little bit of constraint and being just a bit smarter.

*WWE botched the merger with their own egos. They could have been a little less vindictive and they would have had a much larger empire (see my notes on WCW already having a Vegas move in place) and presumably a better product today.

Egos and rampant stupidity shot themselves both in foot.

I disagree here.

The whole sense of realism outside the ring is what made it work.

I agree strongly with the second half of that comment. They made a few too many dumb decisions (AGAIN..STARRCADE 97!!! Gahhhh they missed the easy layup there) and it ended up costing them.

If they didn't screw that up, they probably win.

 

[DefCONNOne]

I think Thunder didn't work the exact same reason 205 live sucks donkey balls. They are "superstars" but aren't really stars or really pushed as such. If they ever crossed over over guys into feuds with top guys like Styles, Owens and Zayne 205 would work IMO. The cruiserweights were putting on great matches but were stale as hell in terms of main stream because it was the same guys fighting the same guys.

The Jericho/Goldberg feud was more entertaining than any post Hogan, Hall and Nash NWO angle IMO even though we all new Jericho would get killed if they ever actually had a match. Entertainment is entertainment regardless of size IMO. Roman sucks, not because he is the chosen one, it's because he sucks at entertaining. Cena was the perfect storm as guys watching the attitude era when he was cool had kids at the same time.

Parents will buy merch for their kids at live events but aren't buying the network so their kids can watch.

 

[AlaCrimsonTide06]

As far as the number of members; the essentials and good members listed, are really all that should have been in the NWO. A high number for a faction but still, it serves its purpose as trying to take over WCW. 5 guys were not going to take over WCW by themselves.