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Melo wants to test FA

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LogicMan

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David_Son. I think your comment on Melo is spot on. I admired the 70's Knicks. We need them back as a force in the NBA. Perhaps they do as you suggest. It seems a good path.
 

trojanfan12

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Trojan. As David_Son wisely states, sign and trade is the most likely set of actions ahead. Rarely will assets get to FA, especially under new CBA rules. Trade exceptions become a huge asset as well.

LA took a chance most teams wont, trading away assets without securing the long contract. LA believed their distinct advantage was ability to offer a max contract to Dwight.

You stated your analogy of Farmar and Love, not I. Your premise is that Love will get to FA, and, once in FA he will go to LA. THats a probability, but know that other teams will have the money, they will have assets to pull off a sign and trade, and they probably will then have the advantage of a max contract.

I believe you want LA to use the 14/15 period to spend. But I am not aware of any rebuilds that are built on relying on the FA process as the primary means. Never seen it. Even Miami deal required many many picks to be given up.

Exactly. It was an analogy, not a plan. It simply to illustrate how the plans can be changed/affected by how this current team and the players on it perform.

Really shouldn't be that difficult to understand.
 

LogicMan

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Trojan. Call it an analogy, call it a plan, the resulting outcome you argued that could take place was Love and Farmar.

Stay on point. Is that the talent that will rebuild LA?
 

trojanfan12

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Trojan. Call it an analogy, call it a plan, the resulting outcome you argued that could take place was Love and Farmar.

Stay on point. Is that the talent that will rebuild LA?

I'm going to type slow that you can hopefully understand.

An analogy and a plan are not the same. The Farmar/Love analogy was used to show that the Lakers are in a fluid situation re: how they will re-build. Most seem to think that Love going to the Lakers will happen. Assuming it does, then they have to put pieces around him. If Farmar continues to play well, then the Lakers wouldn't need to worry about a point guard and could look at other players at other positions.

For example: Jalen Rose said that he thinks that in a couple of years, when Kevin Durant's contract expires, he will leave OKC and join Harden and Howard in Houston. He said he could then see Westbrook also leaving OKC and joining Kevin Love on the Lakers. This makes a certain amount of sense since they were teammates at UCLA and Westbrook is from L.A.

The Lakers also need to see what Kobe has left and how many more years he is likely to play although I'd imagine that he'll be retiring right about the time Love/Westbrook/Rondo, etc. would be available.

Heck, if Lebron surprises and accepts an offer from the Lakers, that would also have a huge effect on the Lakers plans to re-build. The current team is loaded, almost exclusively, with 1 year deals. The Lakers planned it that way 3 years ago because they knew this re-build was coming and they have several different scenarios based on how these current players perform and who will be available on the FA market.

I have stayed on point. Your inability to understand the point doesn't change that. I know that you and other Celtics fans really want to believe that the Lakers are a rudderless ship, completely unprepared and will be joining the Celtics in their upcoming 2+ decades of irrelevance, but it's not happening.
 

LogicMan

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The Lakers planned nothing. Be real. The Lakers traded away the assets to get Howard, and then capitulated on giving what he wanted to stay. If you recall, I applauded Lakers acquisition of Howard, but then they bumbled around w/o a plan for him, while he played injured, and then, after he did not get his requests, tore him up in the press. They could have amnestied Kobe, and used the cash to build around dwight, bringing in Phil to run the rebuild. They banked on the max contract, despite Dwight's unhappiness. When it failed, they tryed to reduce his capabilities in a press campaign. Thats not a plan. Thats giving away the house for nothing.
 

LogicMan

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So we can agree that their rebuild now relies on using free agency. I can agree 100% that if LBJ goes to LA, they will be fine. He is special. I will again applaud if they get him to depart a team and management that is pulling off smart moves and have the ability to win again and again.

The other players you mention will want big contracts and a chance to win now. Like the Harden and LBJ moves it probably will happen the year before, or at the end through sign and trades. This means you need some assets to acquire them. Its not rocket science. Your logic suggests that they will just have a bunch of star free agents, still young enough to build around, with open ended contracts.

heck even Mitch's recent attempts to get howard and CP required giving up assets. You remember that right? So why is the "analogy" that free agents will just be available for cash seem to be so easy?

Only once did LA get a player of caliber that way, and that was Shaq. Can you follow this part and agree?
 

LogicMan

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You constantly refer to the Celtics bad period, but do you know how it got bad? Read up on it. It might just feel like home to you right now.
 

trojanfan12

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You constantly refer to the Celtics bad period, but do you know how it got bad? Read up on it. It might just feel like home to you right now.

I have read up on it. It was a combination of bad moves and bad luck (who expects 2 top draft choices to die, especially with one team).

As for the Lakers not having a plan. Believe what you want. Clearly, your mind is made up and there is nothing that's going to change it. I laid it out for you including pointing out how the current contracts are set up and why. If you refuse to see what's in front of your face, that's on you.
 

LogicMan

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You continue to defend the logic that having cap space freed will be the answer. Its a one dimensional plan. No team has rebuilt this way. ever.

But I recognize you are banking on that dimension. This, freeing up of cap space is the great LA plan.

The Celtics were in a great position when Pitino arrived. The demise was trading away picks, assets and getting nothing great back. Then he tried to return to glory use stupid free agent signings as his great plan. He felt the pressure to win now. No real plan at all. No alignment with management. They were fools
 

LogicMan

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So lets agree to disagree. Your a great fan, I know this.

We will see as this and next year evolve, which plan works better.

Sound good?
 

trojanfan12

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So lets agree to disagree. Your a great fan, I know this.

We will see as this and next year evolve, which plan works better.

Sound good?

Sounds good to me. I think that we are actually kind of saying the same thing. It's not that the Lakers don't have a plan, it's more that you don't think it will work and I think it will.

Either way, I think we're looking at anywhere from 1-4 years before we'll know for sure.
 

trojanfan12

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You continue to defend the logic that having cap space freed will be the answer. Its a one dimensional plan. No team has rebuilt this way. ever.

But I recognize you are banking on that dimension. This, freeing up of cap space is the great LA plan.

The Celtics were in a great position when Pitino arrived. The demise was trading away picks, assets and getting nothing great back. Then he tried to return to glory use stupid free agent signings as his great plan. He felt the pressure to win now. No real plan at all. No alignment with management. They were fools

On this real quick. Just because something hasn't been done, doesn't mean it can't be done. No team had pulled off a coup like the Heat did when they brought in Lebron, Bosh and Wade before. Also, the Lakers will have draft picks, beginning this upcoming draft, I believe. I just have more faith in FA's than the draft.

As for what happened with the C's under Pitino. You said it yourself. Management and your coach were not aligned. It resulted in some stupid FA signings. Just because it happened to the Celtics, doesn't mean the Lakers have to suffer the same fate. Laker management and the coach seem to be fairly aligned on what the plan is. It's a question of whether or not it will actually work.
 

Kold

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The Lakers planned nothing. Be real. The Lakers traded away the assets to get Howard, and then capitulated on giving what he wanted to stay. If you recall, I applauded Lakers acquisition of Howard, but then they bumbled around w/o a plan for him, while he played injured, and then, after he did not get his requests, tore him up in the press. They could have amnestied Kobe, and used the cash to build around dwight, bringing in Phil to run the rebuild. They banked on the max contract, despite Dwight's unhappiness. When it failed, they tryed to reduce his capabilities in a press campaign. Thats not a plan. Thats giving away the house for nothing.
FIRST, let me remind you that the whole logic behind the trade was that they traded Bynum whom was in the last year in his contract as well. Kupchak had an extension ready for Bynum and he turned it down. They wanted that extension with Bynum but when that fell apart they went back to the Howard plan. If you're going to get atleast 1 year, you want it out of Howard and not what was left of Bynum. SECOND, if all he wanted was Dantoni out, then I would have booted him for a new, younger coach if we could find a good replacement. I've come to the realization that Phil is done physically. He still has the ability but he has so many physical injuries/age working against him . NOW, if the reports are true that he wanted Kobe amnestied, then he's a fool if he EVER thought that was a possibility. I understand that it makes sense...but Jim Buss has way too many PR blunders already. I found myself in the VAST minority of wanting to keep Howard. I'd say about 80% of Laker fans wanted him out for whatever reasons they thought, reasons which I never really agreed with. Knowing this, if Buss had kept him AND amnestied Kobe, people would of been at Staples with pitchforks.
 
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Kold

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You continue to defend the logic that having cap space freed will be the answer. Its a one dimensional plan. No team has rebuilt this way. ever.
That's because the idea of teaming up with other top level superstars was completely foreign until 2010. Trust me, if Jordan, Reggie Miller, etc. had the AAU mindset of players these days....a dynasty WOULD have been built like that in the 90's....but as we all know, in the 90's(and before), loyalty to their teams was everything, and they wanted to destroy each other, rather than team up. JEEZ I miss that
 

Kold

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Also, the Lakers will have draft picks, beginning this upcoming draft, I believe. I just have more faith in FA's than the draft.
I agree, but might I suggest that you closely watch college b-ball this season. Got some STUDS coming out next year. It's why I want Kobe to take his time coming back, and it's why I think it's best for us to get into the lottery rather than getting a lower seed in the playoffs.
 

trojanfan12

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FIRST, let me remind you that the whole logic behind the trade was that they traded Bynum whom was in the last year in his contract as well. Kupchak had an extension ready for Bynum and he turned it down. They wanted that extension with Bynum but when that fell apart they went back to the Howard plan. If you're going to get atleast 1 year, you want it out of Howard and not what was left of Bynum. SECOND, if all he wanted was Dantoni out, then I would have booted him for a new, younger coach if we could find a good replacement. I've come to the realization that Phil is done physically. He still has the ability but he has so many physical injuries/age working against him . NOW, if the reports are true that he wanted Kobe amnestied, then he's a fool if he EVER thought that was a possibility. I understand that it makes sense...but Jim Buss has way too many PR blunders already. I found myself in the VAST minority of wanting to keep Howard. I'd say about 80% of Laker fans wanted him out for whatever reasons they thought, reasons which I never really agreed with. Knowing this, if Buss had kept him AND amnestied Kobe, people would of been at Staples with pitchforks.

Additionally, I read today where Kobe admitted that he and Dwight were not on the same page re: how to lead the team. Dwight had his way and Kobe had his.

Doesn't matter whose way was correct, but what does matter is the audacity of Dwight coming in to a team that he was not committed to. Having won exactly zero championships and thinking that he would be the leader on a team with a first ballot Hall of Famer who has 5 championship rings.
 

trojanfan12

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I agree, but might I suggest that you closely watch college b-ball this season. Got some STUDS coming out next year. It's why I want Kobe to take his time coming back, and it's why I think it's best for us to get into the lottery rather than getting a lower seed in the playoffs.

I agree that there are some studs, but there have been plenty of draft classes with studs who have become busts.

Heck, don't the Lakers have about 3 former lottery picks on this current team who are signed to 1 year deals and playing for their NBA lives?

There are teams that end up in the lottery season after season and never seem to get to the playoffs because of draft picks that didn't pan out.
 

Kold

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I agree that there are some studs, but there have been plenty of draft classes with studs who have become busts.

Heck, don't the Lakers have about 3 former lottery picks on this current team who are signed to 1 year deals and playing for their NBA lives?

There are teams that end up in the lottery season after season and never seem to get to the playoffs because of draft picks that didn't pan out.
Got a strong point that I can't really rebut there. All I can say is, sometimes you strike gold, and sometimes you crap out
 

trojanfan12

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Got a strong point that I can't really rebut there. All I can say is, sometimes you strike gold, and sometimes you crap out

I don't want to completely discount the draft. I think FA and some draft picks are probably the best way to build/re-build a team. I just put more faith in players who have shown what they can do. The Lakers have typically done pretty well in the draft.

Magic, Worthy and Kobe were all first rounders and guys like Michael Cooper and D-Fish were 2nd round picks. I'd say all of those guys performed halfway decent as Lakers. :lol:

I think the biggest issue that I see with the draft is the one and dones. Just seems like we're seeing more and more players every year that just aren't ready for the NBA.
 

LogicMan

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Kold, if you agree it makes sense to have amnestied Kobe, which I applaud yor for, do you really think Jim Buss will put immediate fans support ahead of the team? That is exactly the trap he is headed for.

Trojan, thats the logic I explained that Pitino fell into to. The best decision is not the popular decision.

And this is why Paul Pierce and KG will be admired in Boston forever. The won, then they gave us many many assets at the twilight of their careers. Boston finally learned.
 
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