POLL Lebron James and his all time ranking

[SJ76]

Disagree. I think many are so enamored with their jump shooting abilities that they forget how much they play in the paint too. In 2016 we saw a Finals series where LBJ & his Cavs were way more physical with GS & as a result it took them out of their rhythm -and they lost.

If Steph isn't free to run around screens like he does so well that really changes his game because then he's forced to live off of pull up jumpers. Don't get me wrong - he's a great shooter - but there are many other facets to his game that makes him so dangerous for defenders.

I agree. 2016 Cavs defensively were way better on Curry than 2017. They got a bit more physical with him no doubt.

 

[SJ76]

 

[LAD]

They do a lot in the paint.

The reason those opportunities are so open is because the defense is stretched so far guarding shooters and they have limited opportunity to help because of those shooters.

What you guys are failing to grasp is that the driving lanes would still be there unless the Pistons abondoned the shooters. The Warriors make them pay either way. Yes, they would take a few cheap shots along the way, but I will say it again. The 80s and 90s teams never had to defend an offense like this one.

I understand your points - but I think you're failing to give adequate credit to what a physical defense does to players. It literally makes them change their game therefore keeping them out of a rhythm.

 

[LAD]

They were able to take Steph away because he was playing injured and at maybe 75%.

No. Steph was fine in terms of recovering from his injury. It was the physicality of the Cavs' defense that bothered him. He was held and/or grabbed nearly 80% of the time. Hard to get into a shooting rhythm like that.

 

[tlance]

No. Steph was fine in terms of recovering from his injury. It was the physicality of the Cavs' defense that bothered him. He was held and/or grabbed nearly 80% of the time. Hard to get into a shooting rhythm like that.

No, he really wasn't.

Every time he took a jump shot he was landing on 1 leg and the explosion just wasn't there. He was not able to seperate off the dribble from Kevin Love for Christ sake. Also, you may have heard that the warriors added another player to the mix after 2016 that made them exponentially tougher to defend.

I do not underestimate what physical play can do. I have played basketball all my life and still do at age 39. I think many here overestimate what players were allowed to get away with in the 90s. Yes, it was more physical, but it wasn't tackle football. The biggest difference was that a play that would now be an ejection was just a hard common foul back then.

The problem is that because of the floor spacing, those teams would not usually be in position to administer those hard fouls. At least not nearly as often as they were back in the day.

 

[tlance]

No. Steph was fine in terms of recovering from his injury. It was the physicality of the Cavs' defense that bothered him. He was held and/or grabbed nearly 80% of the time. Hard to get into a shooting rhythm like that.

Do you think the Cavs didn't try to play physical with him last year too?

Of course they did. The problem was that they could not catch him as easily, nor focus on him nearly as much with KD on the court.

 

[TJL]

I have him anywhere from 4-6 when I make a list.

 

[LAD]

No, he really wasn't.

Every time he took a jump shot he was landing on 1 leg and the explosion just wasn't there. He was not able to seperate off the dribble from Kevin Love for Christ sake. Also, you may have heard that the warriors added another player to the mix after 2016 that made them exponentially tougher to defend.

I do not underestimate what physical play can do. I have played basketball all my life and still do at age 39. I think many here overestimate what players were allowed to get away with in the 90s. Yes, it was more physical, but it wasn't tackle football. The biggest difference was that a play that would now be an ejection was just a hard common foul back then.

The problem is that because of the floor spacing, those teams would not usually be in position to administer those hard fouls. At least not nearly as often as they were back in the day.

I'm not sure what KD going to GS AFTER that series has to do with the point I made about Steph in 2016. Also, the discussion wasn't whether or not the physical play should've been legal or not. We were talking about how teams of today's era would respond to that type of play. And I'm pretty sure it was pretty darn close to tackle football on many nights. More specifically, the season when the Piston Bad Boys were winning.

 

[tlance]

I'm not sure what KD going to GS AFTER that series has to do with the point I made about Steph in 2016. Also, the discussion wasn't whether or not the physical play should've been legal or not. We were talking about how teams of today's era would respond to that type of play. And I'm pretty sure it was pretty darn close to tackle football on many nights. More specifically, the season when the Piston Bad Boys were winning.

First off, we are not talking about how the 2016 Warriors would fare against the Pistons. 2nd, you saw how the Warriors responded in 2017 with a fully healthy Curry and KD. Cleveland couldn't do anything to slow them down despite saying they needed to play with more physicality before every single game.

Lastly, this whole discussion started because someone made the comment that the Warriors would crumble against the physical play in the 90s. They weren't even talking about the Pistons (I do believe the Warriors would run circles around them). The comments were suggesting that teams like the 90s Sonics and Jazz would take out GS. That is just crazy.

 

[LAD]

Do you think the Cavs didn't try to play physical with him last year too?

Of course they did. The problem was that they could not catch him as easily, nor focus on him nearly as much with KD on the court.

Clearly having KD on the court changed the defensive scheme - of EVERY team they faced. Not sure why you thought I - or anyone for that matter - might dispute that.

But part of the reason they weren't as successful last year is because the refs were actually calling more fouls. How many times did we see them foul Steph during an inbounds pass before the ball was actually inbounded?

 

[LAD]

First off, we are not talking about how the 2016 Warriors would fare against the Pistons. 2nd, you saw how the Warriors responded in 2017 with a fully healthy Curry and KD. Cleveland couldn't do anything to slow them down despite saying they needed to play with more physicality before every single game.

Lastly, this whole discussion started because someone made the comment that the Warriors would crumble against the physical play in the 90s. They weren't even talking about the Pistons (I do believe the Warriors would run circles around them). The comments were suggesting that teams like the 90s Sonics and Jazz would take out GS. That is just crazy.

Calm down. I never said anything about the Warriors playing the Pistons. I used the Pistons as an example of the physical play in that era.

And again, the playing field was clearly DIFFERENT once they acquired KD. Freakin Stevie Wonder can see that so I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up. I've never posed an argument that disagrees with that. My point about Steph being held and/or grabbed constantly in 2016 has NOTHING TO DO WITH KD.

 

[SJ76]

I understand your points - but I think you're failing to give adequate credit to what a physical defense does to players. It literally makes them change their game therefore keeping them out of a rhythm.

BOOM

 

[tlance]

Calm down. I never said anything about the Warriors playing the Pistons. I used the Pistons as an example of the physical play in that era.

And again, the playing field was clearly DIFFERENT once they acquired KD. Freakin Stevie Wonder can see that so I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up. I've never posed an argument that disagrees with that. My point about Steph being held and/or grabbed constantly in 2016 has NOTHING TO DO WITH KD.

Not directly, no. Indirectly, it does.

The defense in 2016 was able to focus 100% on Steph because he was the creator on the offensive end. When they were able to take him away, the entire offense suffered because everyone else was used to playing off him. Draymond and Klay are not guys who can create their own shots very effectively.

There were 2 reasons that Cleveland couldn't use that strategy in 2017. The first was that Curry was actually healthy and wasn't so easily bullied. The second was that focusing on curry was irrelevant because KD could both initiate the offense and get his own shot whenever he wanted. GS didn't have that in 2016. The Cavs also relied on Harrison Barnes missing a ton of shots. Had he played halfway decent, the Dubs win that series anyway.

So yeah, I think KD's presence is completely relevant to the discussion above, and also why using the 2016 Warriors as an example for why physical play would slow down the current version of GS is moot. There is no Barnes to leave open anymore.

 

[redseat]

Right now right outside top 5 but I am thinking when he is done he will be Top 5.

 

[msgkings322]

No. Steph was fine in terms of recovering from his injury. It was the physicality of the Cavs' defense that bothered him. He was held and/or grabbed nearly 80% of the time. Hard to get into a shooting rhythm like that.

So, they cheated. Easy to get a player out of rhythm if you can cheat.

 

[LAD]

Not directly, no. Indirectly, it does.

The defense in 2016 was able to focus 100% on Steph because he was the creator on the offensive end. When they were able to take him away, the entire offense suffered because everyone else was used to playing off him. Draymond and Klay are not guys who can create their own shots very effectively.

There were 2 reasons that Cleveland couldn't use that strategy in 2017. The first was that Curry was actually healthy and wasn't so easily bullied. The second was that focusing on curry was irrelevant because KD could both initiate the offense and get his own shot whenever he wanted. GS didn't have that in 2016. The Cavs also relied on Harrison Barnes missing a ton of shots. Had he played halfway decent, the Dubs win that series anyway.

So yeah, I think KD's presence is completely relevant to the discussion above, and also why using the 2016 Warriors as an example for why physical play would slow down the current version of GS is moot. There is no Barnes to leave open anymore.

you've moved the goal posts so many times in this conversation. We were specifically talking about the defense being PHYSICAL with Steph. Which is why I mentioned the holding & grabbing many times. Not any type of other strategies, like whether or not they could double him based on the other guys on the floor.

 

[LAD]

So, they cheated. Easy to get a player out of rhythm if you can cheat.

Basically...

 

[tlance]

you've moved the goal posts so many times in this conversation. We were specifically talking about the defense being PHYSICAL with Steph. Which is why I mentioned the holding & grabbing many times. Not any type of other strategies, like whether or not they could double him based on the other guys on the floor.

You might have been talking about that. I was talking about 90s defenses not working on the current Warrior group. Always have been. That has not changed.

There is a lot more to the team than just Steph, and from what I have seen, he has responded pretty well to physical play except for last June when he was playing at significantly less than full strength. Literally every team the Warriors play tries to get physical with Steph if they are actually trying to win the game.