July 1st is right around the corner

[sjrules99]

Being a D liability shouldnt be a black flag tho... We have the worst one (ok 2nd worst one - the other is actually skilled) on our team with Marleau.. The 1st worst one is Ovie.. and while im not comparing Goldo to Ovie... would you really not want Ovie on your team cause he is awful in his own zone??? - back to the 2nd wrost - We have marleau, who is n albatros given his contract vs points vs his awful D... So SJ really should have no right to black flag Goldo for lack of D almost, when they pay a guy 7mil to completely blow nuts every game.. If Goldo can put up 20/40 at 1mil a year, hes worth the roster over Marleaus 25/45 7mil -25 a year...

While anyone who follows this board knows I am no big fan of Patricia, it's not a fair comparison. Patty has declined tremendously and that's part of his issues. Patty also has a much better two way game, even if he's still not very good in his own zone, and his salary is a relic of the past. Of course dougie would never give him anywhere near 6.7M that he makes now if he could change the deal. You cant compare the salaries, and while trading patty is always an interesting topic, its unlikely not because patty has great value or contributes so much, but for locker room and chemistry reasons. Like it or not, to many people, patty is the face of the franchise after nearly 20 years in teal. Chemistry in hockey is like a wild ghost orchid: very very hard to find, a beautiful thing, and quite easily destroyed with sudden ill advised moves or poor nutrients.

back to Goldo: being defensively responsible is a non-negotiable trait for any prospect, especially in the sharks system. Goldo, though apparently slowly improving, is atrocious there (worse than ovie) and of course is nowhere near as offensively gifted as Goldobin is well under a point per game in the minors. For a guy like goldobin, with nice hands and deft moves but certainly not dominant, he has to be good in his own zone. Scoring 30 goals is not worth much if you are personally responsible for 50 against. Dougie, Deboer, and Sommer know this which is why Sommer is working so hard to improve that side of his game. If he makes strides in this arena, we will see him in teal because his skating and hands are certainly NHL quality.

p.s.: Your evaluation of Ovie is probably his biggest criticism, but its changed a lot once a very good, defensive-minded coach in Trotz took over. Trotz was used to minimal talent in Nashville and always got max value from them by getting max effort, having great structure, and defensive emphasis. He brought that culture to washington, which is why they jumped to #2 in GAA as a team and won the presidents trophy with Ovie a whopping +21 (2nd best on team) despite his 2nd lowest points per game output in his career. Ovie took giant strides last year in his own zone, and while it likely cost him some points, it made the team way way better.

 

[Likewall32]

While anyone who follows this board knows I am no big fan of Patricia, it's not a fair comparison. Patty has declined tremendously and that's part of his issues. Patty also has a much better two way game, even if he's still not very good in his own zone, and his salary is a relic of the past. Of course dougie would never give him anywhere near 6.7M that he makes now if he could change the deal. You cant compare the salaries, and while trading patty is always an interesting topic, its unlikely not because patty has great value or contributes so much, but for locker room and chemistry reasons. Like it or not, to many people, patty is the face of the franchise after nearly 20 years in teal. Chemistry in hockey is like a wild ghost orchid: very very hard to find, a beautiful thing, and quite easily destroyed with sudden ill advised moves or poor nutrients.

back to Goldo: being defensively responsible is a non-negotiable trait for any prospect, especially in the sharks system. Goldo, though apparently slowly improving, is atrocious there (worse than ovie) and of course is nowhere near as offensively gifted as Goldobin is well under a point per game in the minors. For a guy like goldobin, with nice hands and deft moves but certainly not dominant, he has to be good in his own zone. Scoring 30 goals is not worth much if you are personally responsible for 50 against. Dougie, Deboer, and Sommer know this which is why Sommer is working so hard to improve that side of his game. If he makes strides in this arena, we will see him in teal because his skating and hands are certainly NHL quality.

p.s.: Your evaluation of Ovie is probably his biggest criticism, but its changed a lot once a very good, defensive-minded coach in Trotz took over. Trotz was used to minimal talent in Nashville and always got max value from them by getting max effort, having great structure, and defensive emphasis. He brought that culture to washington, which is why they jumped to #2 in GAA as a team and won the presidents trophy with Ovie a whopping +21 (2nd best on team) despite his 2nd lowest points per game output in his career. Ovie took giant strides last year in his own zone, and while it likely cost him some points, it made the team way way better.

Your 2nd paragraph is the one that interests me... Why are all scouts and reports so high on him offensively when his numbers in the minors arent great at all?? Ive noticed those stats before and often wondered where they are coming up with that evaluation of him? Even his brief stint with SJ, I wasnt impressed with his O game... I thought maybe im just missing something here... And even when Cmon said hes just coasting tho the prospect camp, I thought that was kind of odd too... Even tho its his 2nd one, why would someone coast through that when you arent guarenteed any roster spots?

 

[sjrules99]

Your 2nd paragraph is the one that interests me... Why are all scouts and reports so high on him offensively when his numbers in the minors arent great at all?? Ive noticed those stats before and often wondered where they are coming up with that evaluation of him? Even his brief stint with SJ, I wasnt impressed with his O game... I thought maybe im just missing something here... And even when Cmon said hes just coasting tho the prospect camp, I thought that was kind of odd too... Even tho its his 2nd one, why would someone coast through that when you arent guarenteed any roster spots?

Well, his attitude and work ethic seems to be his biggest weakness. His offensive skill is there, and I was quite impressed with his hands in the limited amount Ive seen. His numbers in juniors were pretty big and his numbers in the AHL were still pretty solid with 44 pts in 60 games (3rd on the team in pts/gm as a young 20 year old). His offensive game is there, and while he may not be at the elite NHL level in that area, he is showing the offensive potential of a top 9 forward. However, his -9 was amongst the worst on the Cuda, and his -9 in finland was the worst on the team, and he was -30 on his last junior team in sarnia. He has never shown himself to be a plus player and a guy who can be good defensively at any level. he does have the offense, but in training camp and in the first few months of the cuda season, he's gunna have to show the abililty to win defensive board battles and get pucks out. he's gunna have to show the ability to backcheck hard and cover the point in the O-zone wen the D pinch. He has to do all the little things that good defensive players do before he will get a chance to showcase the offensive talent.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Goldobins work ethic has never been an issue. He is actually one of the hardest working players when it comes to improving aspects of his game and that was a major point made by DW and the scouts when he was drafted. Goldobin is not going to put himself in a position to get injured in a camp that really means nothing to him. Often times for players who are attending their 2nd or 3rd development camp the coaching staff will tell them to focus on one or two specific areas of their game and not over exert themselves with scrimmages and other drills. Goldobins defensive and improved dramatically. Having said that it's still not great but passable at the NHL level. Most of the Sharks forwards are very responsible defensively so his short comings in that regard shouldn't be much of an issue.

Likewall, to sort of answer your question a couple posts above, assuming the 4th line is Nieto-Tierney-Karlsson, that means Goldobin will be competing with Wingels, Sorensen, and Meier for the last forward spot if the roster remains as it stands. I am of the same opinion as Rules in that the organization favors Meier above the rest at the moment.

 

[sjrules99]

Goldobins work ethic has never been an issue. He is actually one of the hardest working players when it comes to improving aspects of his game and that was a major point made by DW and the scouts when he was drafted. Goldobin is not going to put himself in a position to get injured in a camp that really means nothing to him. Often times for players who are attending their 2nd or 3rd development camp the coaching staff will tell them to focus on one or two specific areas of their game and not over exert themselves with scrimmages and other drills. Goldobins defensive and improved dramatically. Having said that it's still not great but passable at the NHL level. Most of the Sharks forwards are very responsible defensively so his short comings in that regard shouldn't be much of an issue.

Likewall, to sort of answer your question a couple posts above, assuming the 4th line is Nieto-Tierney-Karlsson, that means Goldobin will be competing with Wingels, Sorensen, and Meier for the last forward spot if the roster remains as it stands. I am of the same opinion as Rules in that the organization favors Meier above the rest at the moment.

Really? I thought his ethic without the puck and defensive focus was exactly what dropped him to the end of the first round. his offense was supposedly around the top 10 in his draft, but the lack of work ethic, battle, and commitment in his own zone and without the puck was his glaring weakness. I read several reports from his draft year to that effect. I figured dougie grabbed him because he was going for the homerun and because of his connection with Larionov.

He has improved defensively, no doubt, and that's why he is as close as ever to making an NHL roster. But, he's still not consistently there, so the first few months of the year in the Cuda will be key for him to get a good look if/when an injury or trade happens that opens a spot for him.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

it wasn't a lack of effort it was a complete lack of defensive awareness. He was so bad defensively that it was often mistaken for lazy play. He always worked to get back to the defensive zone but once there he had very little idea how to position himself. And again I'm talking about how hard he works to improve his game. That is something that often times comes away from the game. Two seasons ago in Sweeden and last year in the AHL the coaches often spoke about him being the first on the ice and last off for practices.

 

[Likewall32]

From what you 2 say, he reminds me of Korolyuk 2.0 in the O department --- the potential we never got to fully see

 

[Cmon_WTF]

That wouldn't be a bad comparison in terms of playing style. Though, I think Korky was a little more willing to get his nose dirty along the boards.

 

[sjrules99]

From what you 2 say, he reminds me of Korolyuk 2.0 in the O department --- the potential we never got to fully see

Yep, kinda like that. Actually, it's interesting that I had never put the two together, but I think there are alot of parrellels in terms of russian, high skilled, defensively iffy at times. of course, Korky seemed to me to be NHL quality defensively, and to this day, I dont fully understand why he never caught on here and decided to go back to russia. I mean, it was 12 years ago, but if I recall, I think it was RW's dislike of him for some reason? Also his last season was the the one before the lockout, so that mighta been part of it...

Goldy seems a similar style of player. Korky didnt break through full time in SJ until 1998 when he was 22, so Goldy is on a similar path. Hopfully, he continues to make strides defensively, and then we'll see what Goldy has in store.

Also, Korky always seemed to have one foot in russia. he was drafted out of russia, played three years after his draft year in russia and then ultimately returned to russia. Goldy was in NA the two years prior to his draft in Jr's so hes two feet into NA, I think.

Cmon, is the coaching staff in Sarnia THAT bad? They never taught him how to play defense? That's pretty terrible...

 

[MrFlyingV]

Couldn't the Sharks find someone better than Matt Nieto for another year? Don't see how he has earned another year with this team.

 

[sjrules99]

Couldn't the Sharks find someone better than Matt Nieto for another year? Don't see how he has earned another year with this team.

for 700k? thats less than most ELC's...

V, why are you so down on nieto? Hes averaging just over 11 goals and 27 pts per 82 games, and that's not bad at all. Its bottom two lines type of production, but then again he's just 23 years old, and most players dont hit their peak at 23. If his trajectory is like most, he should get better and he sure has the wheels to start improving. Its not unreasonable to think he could be a 20g-20a type of player a few years down the road if he adds a little muscle and continues to work hard. Im glad they didnt just throw him away and the dollar amount was extraordinarily team friendly.

The problem for nieto is that he fell down the depth chart last year with the additions of ward and donskoi, return of hertl closer to form, and karlsson and tierney as regulars. I mean the sharks added 4 forwards last year who were not on the roster at the start of the previous year (ward, don, melker, and tierney). Add in spaling and zubris toward the deadline, and it's six forwards. As meier looks to break in this year, Nieto just kinda found himself the odd man out and didnt get the usual ice time and oppportunities.

Depth is a really good thing to have, especially with Jumbo, patty and ward all 35+. Nieto adds good value and if he can get a little hot, they might be able to package him to upgrade the D when the time comes.

 

[Likewall32]

Couldn't the Sharks find someone better than Matt Nieto for another year? Don't see how he has earned another year with this team.

To put it mildly, anyone bitching about Nieto at 700K is a got-damn moron... compare his stats to Andrew Shaw... Shaw gets 3M a year, Nieto gets 700K... Shaw avgs 27.4 pp season, Nieto is very close to that, in less games per season, and less quality linemates... How the fark can you honestly question this move??

 

[Likewall32]

The stupidity on this board is honestly why I fly off the deep end and then go into hibernation.... Who the hell else do you want on your 4th line that you think can put up numbers like Nieto for the salary and at the age... No one... You want more Browns or Burishes?? they lost more and offer less... You want Shaws?? who cost 6x more and offer the same... Jesus Christ Flying V your comment was one of the dumbest things ive read on here in a lost ass time...

 

[MrFlyingV]

The stupidity on this board is honestly why I fly off the deep end and then go into hibernation.... Who the hell else do you want on your 4th line that you think can put up numbers like Nieto for the salary and at the age... No one... You want more Browns or Burishes?? they lost more and offer less... You want Shaws?? who cost 6x more and offer the same... Jesus Christ Flying V your comment was one of the dumbest things ive read on here in a lost ass time...

Not really. Kurz brought it up too at one point.

P.S. You really need some anger management counseling. What happened, your mom took you off the breast too early in your life, and you grew up like this?

 

[MrFlyingV]

for 700k? thats less than most ELC's...

V, why are you so down on nieto? Hes averaging just over 11 goals and 27 pts per 82 games, and that's not bad at all. Its bottom two lines type of production, but then again he's just 23 years old, and most players dont hit their peak at 23. If his trajectory is like most, he should get better and he sure has the wheels to start improving. Its not unreasonable to think he could be a 20g-20a type of player a few years down the road if he adds a little muscle and continues to work hard. Im glad they didnt just throw him away and the dollar amount was extraordinarily team friendly.

The problem for nieto is that he fell down the depth chart last year with the additions of ward and donskoi, return of hertl closer to form, and karlsson and tierney as regulars. I mean the sharks added 4 forwards last year who were not on the roster at the start of the previous year (ward, don, melker, and tierney). Add in spaling and zubris toward the deadline, and it's six forwards. As meier looks to break in this year, Nieto just kinda found himself the odd man out and didnt get the usual ice time and oppportunities.

Depth is a really good thing to have, especially with Jumbo, patty and ward all 35+. Nieto adds good value and if he can get a little hot, they might be able to package him to upgrade the D when the time comes.

Contract is friendly but I feel he has regressed and peeked in his rookie year. Torrey Mitchell 2.0. That is why he fell down the depth chart. He and Wingels.

 

[MrFlyingV]

The stupidity on this board is honestly why I fly off the deep end and then go into hibernation.... Who the hell else do you want on your 4th line that you think can put up numbers like Nieto for the salary and at the age... No one... You want more Browns or Burishes?? they lost more and offer less... You want Shaws?? who cost 6x more and offer the same... Jesus Christ Flying V your comment was one of the dumbest things ive read on here in a lost ass time...

Please go into hibernation permanently.

 

[sjrules99]

Contract is friendly but I feel he has regressed and peeked in his rookie year. Torrey Mitchell 2.0. That is why he fell down the depth chart. He and Wingels.

Yeah, I thought the great TM might draw the comparison. similar size, speed, mediocre hands. That said, I wonder what TM would have been if not for the devastating leg injury. Who knows?

I also agree that he had a pretty bad year last year. Hard to argue, but some of that was a lesser opportunity (2 mins less of ice per game, and much lower on the depth chart with all the additions I mentioned).

I mean, truth is 700k/yr is a zero risk option, and a very movable deal given the age and RFA status afterword for a midround pick in worst case. he, like wingels, will be really motivated to restart their careers. Wingels is 5 years older, but both found themselves in the doghouse/press box late last year, and both will want to prove their worth. With the sharks' depth, it's gunna take alot for 'em to do it, but I woudn't be surprised if neito doesnt take big strides this year if given any opportunity.

 

[MrFlyingV]

Yeah, I thought the great TM might draw the comparison. similar size, speed, mediocre hands. That said, I wonder what TM would have been if not for the devastating leg injury. Who knows?

I also agree that he had a pretty bad year last year. Hard to argue, but some of that was a lesser opportunity (2 mins less of ice per game, and much lower on the depth chart with all the additions I mentioned).

I mean, truth is 700k/yr is a zero risk option, and a very movable deal given the age and RFA status afterword for a midround pick in worst case. he, like wingels, will be really motivated to restart their careers. Wingels is 5 years older, but both found themselves in the doghouse/press box late last year, and both will want to prove their worth. With the sharks' depth, it's gunna take alot for 'em to do it, but I woudn't be surprised if neito doesnt take big strides this year if given any opportunity.

I would prefer Nieto over Wingels to be honest at this point. Lesser of two evils. One thing about Nieto he skates like crazy and hustles but without much production. He is more reactionary to a game than anticipating what may happen and where he should be. He lucks into goals in many cases. Of course he'll get a highlight goal and you could see what he could be and then 10 games with nothing. Not so much with the physical game either. If he is going to be on the 4th line he needs to be a bit more grittier. Maybe he took the 750K because there were no other suckers out there and he is sitting at the bottom of the depth chart. In 3 years he has fallen to bottom of the depth chart. Can that be good for the future for him? Let's see if he even makes the team this year.

 

[Cbrower91]

Please go into hibernation permanently.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

I would prefer Nieto over Wingels to be honest at this point. Lesser of two evils. One thing about Nieto he skates like crazy and hustles but without much production. He is more reactionary to a game than anticipating what may happen and where he should be. He lucks into goals in many cases. Of course he'll get a highlight goal and you could see what he could be and then 10 games with nothing. Not so much with the physical game either. If he is going to be on the 4th line he needs to be a bit more grittier. Maybe he took the 750K because there were no other suckers out there and he is sitting at the bottom of the depth chart. In 3 years he has fallen to bottom of the depth chart. Can that be good for the future for him? Let's see if he even makes the team this year.

Nieto is a 4th liner who will get you 10 goals and 20+ points while playing a solid defensive game and can effectively take taxing PK minutes from the older guys like Pavelski and Marleau. What else could you ask for for $700k?