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Jordan would average 40ppg or more in this era

Discussion in 'NBA Basketball Forum' started by DorianRo, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. trojanfan12

    trojanfan12 R.I.P. Robotic Dreams. Fight On!

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    Actually, it is. The physicality of the game made it harder to score and also is part of what made his usage rate so crazy.

    The point is, that with the game being less physical, it makes it easier to score. So, his shots and usage rate wouldn't have to be higher for him to produce more points.

    The zone defenses are why he likely wouldn't be able to average 40 on a contending team. Not a reason he couldn't do it.

    What's laughable is to assume that a player like MJ wouldn't be at least as dominant now as was then. It assumes that he wouldn't take advantage of the advances in training, etc. that are available today and weren't back then.

    Dorians premise that MJ could average 40 and still win as many titles as he did back then is wrong, but his premise that MJ could average 40, isn't.
     



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  2. flyerhawk

    flyerhawk Well-Known Member

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    The stats don't support the claim. Certainly not during the 80s.


    It's less physical but defenses have greater latitude to operate.
    I honestly don't get this statement.


    Oddly I made not a single suggestion that MJ wouldn't dominate. In fact I specifically said he would adjust his game to today's game. Somehow saying that Jordan wouldn't score more today than his highest scoring highest usage season someone equates to saying that he wouldn't be a dominant player today. Weird.

    Sure. If he played more minutes and had a higher usage rate I'm sure he could have scored more. Or using your logic, he could have taken the same number of shots and averaged 40 ppg in today's weaker defenses. All he would have had to have done is shot 69% from the field. No problem.
     
  3. trojanfan12

    trojanfan12 R.I.P. Robotic Dreams. Fight On!

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    In the early 80's, I agree. From about '87 through the 90's, not so much.

    Not really. They can sit back in a zone now. But they can't hand check, hold or bump guys off their spot like they could in the late 80's and through the 90's.
     
  4. trojanfan12

    trojanfan12 R.I.P. Robotic Dreams. Fight On!

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    Because the zone defense makes ball movement more important. So, the game being less physical makes it easier for a guy like MJ to score, but the zone defense also means that for a teams offense to truly work at a contending level, you have to involve other players a lot more. You can't just simply spread the floor and let a guy go one on one and expect to win a lot of games.

    The discussion is about his individual ability to average 40 points per game. Not whether or not he would adjust his game to the way it's played today. I think most of us, except Dorian, assume MJ would adjust his game to fit the way it's played today. But that's not the discussion.

    Uh, no he wouldn't. He averaged what? 37 a game in '87 or whenever that was? That's basically making 1 more 3, or 1 more 2 and 1 more free throw per game.
     
  5. flyerhawk

    flyerhawk Well-Known Member

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    League average scoring in 1992 was 105.3. It is 105.5 today.



    They don't need to. Instead you have these athletic 7 footers who lay outside the paint waiting for people to drive to the hoop. The perimeter defender isn't expected to do as much now as defense is more a team effort.
     
  6. flyerhawk

    flyerhawk Well-Known Member

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    Right. So we agree on this. Let's remember that when Jordan scored 37 a game he WAS the offense for that team. Arguing that he could do more now just seems superfluous to me.

    I just don't get why we would assume that he would do even more than his most centrally involved season of his career.


    I brainfarted on my math. He would have needed to shoot 53% that year. Given that he shot 15% from 3 in 87, more 3s would have meant less scoring.
     
  7. trojanfan12

    trojanfan12 R.I.P. Robotic Dreams. Fight On!

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    :L Needing to has nothing to do with whether or not they are allowed to. They don't do it, because they can't. Those "athletic 7 footers" wouldn't be able to drive to the hoop nearly as easily if they were allowed to play defense as physically as they were back then.
     
  8. tlance

    tlance Kyrie Hater

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    The illegal defense rule was the biggest change to NBA basketball since the advent of the 3 point line and the shot clock. It is that big.

    In the 80s and 90s, teams literally were not allowed to play help defense. Rim protectors could not be in the defensive paint unless they were within arm's length of an offense player or if they were moving directly to defend the ball handler.

    Imagine if that were still the case today now that everyone can shoot 3s and offenses are so much more spread out. The closest helper would be 18 feet from the rim against 5 out spacing.

    The rules of the 80s and 90s catered to ISO Ball and definitely played into Jordan's hands a lot more than the physicality hurt him. Jordan is the best ISO scorer of all time.
     
  9. trojanfan12

    trojanfan12 R.I.P. Robotic Dreams. Fight On!

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    The fact remains...he could score more today. It would be easier for him to score today. There's simply no way around that. It wouldn't get him the titles that it got him back then, so if he wanted those, he'd have to adjust.

    But if he just wanted to score, he would have an easier time in today's game.



    Why would he need to shoot more 3's? It's a difference of 3 points. He could get that with an average 1 more 2 and 1 more free throw per game. Given that it's easier to score today, that wouldn't be a problem.

    Maybe because he was the greatest scorer the game has seen and under today's rules it would be easier for him?
     
  10. tlance

    tlance Kyrie Hater

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    That is not fact. Not even close to fact.

    I think he would have a slightly harder time scoring today than he did in the mid 80s. Defense really wasn't that good back then and the super physical play was mostly reserved for the playoffs. 90s were a different animal all together.

    That being said, there are plenty of guys in the NBA today capable of averaging 40 a game. Any pure scorer is capable of given enough shot opportunities. But, no coach is going to give any one player that much usage because efficiency would be terrible.

    Give Michael Beasley 37 FGAs a game and he could average 40. Knicks might never win a game, but he could do it.
     
  11. Robotech

    Robotech Well-Known Member

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    LOL. I still can't believe a professional basketball player missed that many open shots.
     
  12. Robotech

    Robotech Well-Known Member

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    This is probably too simple, but I think that zone defenses in today's game also give today's defenses an edge over their '80s counterparts. Also, I agree with you that '80s defenses weren't that great. There just wasn't that much effort on the defensive end in the '80s.
     
  13. trojanfan12

    trojanfan12 R.I.P. Robotic Dreams. Fight On!

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    I agree. That's why I think that it would be easier to score, but if scored like he did in the 90's, he wouldn't be winning titles like he did in the 90's.

    Basically, he'd be a better Russell Westbrook.
     
  14. trojanfan12

    trojanfan12 R.I.P. Robotic Dreams. Fight On!

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    It's absolutely a fact. Back then, players could grab, hold, bump, handcheck. That makes it harder to score than in today's game where none of that is allowed.

    He would have seen a lot more help defense, but he'd still have a much easier time getting to his spots than he had when he was playing.
     
  15. tlance

    tlance Kyrie Hater

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    Ready for a role reversal?

    It is your opinion that he would have it easier. There are other variables you are ignoring.

    Also, like I said before, '87 was long before the Jordan rules were established. Teams other than the Pistons didn't play that physical with Jordan. Defense wasn't that good or that physical overall in 1987. You are letting a couple violent highlights distort your view.
     
  16. trojanfan12

    trojanfan12 R.I.P. Robotic Dreams. Fight On!

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    Gonna have to agree to disagree.
     
  17. DJ

    DJ Throbbing and vomiting member

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    This.
     
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  18. DJ

    DJ Throbbing and vomiting member

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    He's an idiot. The titles are always associated with the team and not the city.

    It's common sense, something @Rex Racer lacks.
     
  19. BrockForBroglio

    BrockForBroglio Well-Known Member

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    If this....If that....who friggin cares.....Jordon is retired...
     
  20. Hornsstampede2.0

    Hornsstampede2.0 Burnt Orange and Shiner

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    Jordan would score a little more.....which is debatable with the zone defense and helper defenses.
    He would definitely not win 60 games or sniff a title unless he massively adapted.

    He is the best ISO player.
    But, this is ball movement/help side defense era. ISO players are almost useless.

    His particular skillset would win 45 game. It would be Carmelo Anthony with great defense.
    Jordan could PROBABLY adapt. He could PROBABLY dominate if he changed his style.

    But, there are no guarantees. Maybe Jordan is just hard-wired to be the best ISO player ever on earth and would kind of suck ass in this era.