HOF Ballot Released

[navamind]

ARod doesn't count.

Jeter. I'd take Jeter's offense and baserunning over Vizquel's defense. You could also probably make a case for Nomar on peak alone. And spare me the A-Rod one, I'd take his pre-2004 career over Omar's by a country mile. Also, there's Barry Larkin.

Just because Vizquel played a long time doesn't mean he's great.

 

[broncosmitty]

Jeter. I'd take Jeter's offense and baserunning over Vizquel's defense. You could also probably make a case for Nomar on peak alone. And spare me the A-Rod one, I'd take his pre-2004 career over Omar's by a country mile. Also, there's Barry Larkin.

Just because Vizquel played a long time doesn't mean he's great.

Jeter is the most overrated player I've ever seen.


His defense was tolerated. That should never happen for a guy at short.

Larkin was a 1st Ballot guy. Jeter will be. Nomar just didn't last long enough. ARod is another level of baseball player. And helped make Jeter what he was by not bumping him off shortstop.

 

[navamind]

Jeter is the most overrated player I've ever seen.


His defense was tolerated. That should never happen for a guy at short.

Larkin was a 1st Ballot guy. Jeter will be. Nomar just didn't last long enough. ARod is another level of baseball player. And helped make Jeter what he was by not bumping him off shortstop.

You're not going to hear me argue otherwise about Jeter's defense, it was pretty god awful and he never should have played SS. That being said, Jeter was still a much much better hitter and baserunner than Omar was. Defense is very important at a position like that, but Jeter's also one of the best offensive shortstops of all-time. At the end of the day, I'd still take Jeter's offense over Omar's defense.

Nomar didn't last long enough to be a HOFer, but he still had a pretty great peak (1997-2003). Like Jeter, he was a wayyy better hitter than Omar.

 

[broncosmitty]

You're not going to hear me argue otherwise about Jeter's defense, it was pretty god awful and he never should have played SS. That being said, Jeter was still a much much better hitter and baserunner than Omar was. Defense is very important at a position like that, but Jeter's also one of the best offensive shortstops of all-time. At the end of the day, I'd still take Jeter's offense over Omar's defense.

Nomar didn't last long enough to be a HOFer, but he still had a pretty great peak (1997-2003). Like Jeter, he was a wayyy better hitter than Omar.

There's one thing a shortstop needs to do, play shortstop.

Vizquel was great at it, Jeter was poor.

 

[navamind]

There's one thing a shortstop needs to do, play shortstop.

Vizquel was great at it, Jeter was poor.

They also need to hit. Omar was not good.

 

[navamind]

not to mention baserunning... Jeter was a far more efficinet base stealer (79% to 71%), better at taking extra bases (45% to 42%) and he reached on 82 more errors than Omar did.

Derek Jeter Batting Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

Omar Vizquel Batting Stats | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[MilkSpiller22]

You're not going to hear me argue otherwise about Jeter's defense, it was pretty god awful and he never should have played SS. That being said, Jeter was still a much much better hitter and baserunner than Omar was. Defense is very important at a position like that, but Jeter's also one of the best offensive shortstops of all-time. At the end of the day, I'd still take Jeter's offense over Omar's defense.

Nomar didn't last long enough to be a HOFer, but he still had a pretty great peak (1997-2003). Like Jeter, he was a wayyy better hitter than Omar.

this is the mental gymnastics i can't stand, and why i dont like positional offensive rankings... you say Jeter was so bad defensively that he shouldn't have been a SS... BUT he is a HOF because he is one of the best hitting SS of all time... well, if he was so bad defensively, why is he rewarded for being a SS??

 

[navamind]

this is the mental gymnastics i can't stand, and why i dont like positional offensive rankings... you say Jeter was so bad defensively that he shouldn't have been a SS... BUT he is a HOF because he is one of the best hitting SS of all time... well, if he was so bad defensively, why is he rewarded for being a SS??

because he was a better hitter than almost everyone that ever played the position and he was a great baserunner. You can be bad defensively and still be a good player.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

because he was a better hitter than almost everyone that ever played the position and he was a great baserunner

then dont say he shouldnt have played the position because he was so bad defensively... rewarding a player, just makes no sense...

 

[navamind]

then dont say he shouldnt have played the position because he was so bad defensively... rewarding a player, just makes no sense...

it does when he's better offensively than almost everyone who's ever played the SS position. Offense is more important than defense.













jesus fucking christ

 

[navamind]

First Base JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

Shortstop JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

sort by OPS+. there's 343 1st basemen (granted this includes guys with few plate appearances and guys that played at other positions) that have an OPS+ of 100 or higher. There's 94 shortstops.

 

[TheStarOne]

Trevor Hoffman
Edgar Martinez
Jim Thome
Omar Visquel

 

[broncosmitty]

They also need to hit. Omar was not good.

They don't really need to do much at the plate if they do what he did in the field.

Neither do catchers.

Vizquel was no liability in a lineup anyway. Just didn't hit for power. He did his job. Prolly was slightly above average at getting on base for the majority of his career.

 

[broncosmitty]

Now, lets move on to Larry Walkers home and away splits....

 

[broncosmitty]

it does when he's better offensively than almost everyone who's ever played the SS position. Offense is more important than defense.













jesus fucking christ

You're way off on all this stuff.


Put away the plus signs or something man.

 

[broncosmitty]

Jeter might've been able to handle third.

But would he be an impressive hitter at a corner spot, not really.

 

[VikingFan2k2]

Now, lets move on to Larry Walkers home and away splits....

He doesn't have the numbers as it is IMO. That he played so much of his career in Colorado during the Steroid era doesn't help his case either.

He is a great guy and it would be cool to finally see a Canadian position player in the HOF, but I just don't see it.

 

[soxfan148927]

I know you want to say you are looking at the full picture, but in no way would either Rolen or Jones even be considered if it wasn't for their defense... so then the question is how much should defense be considered?? if those 2 players are to be considered I don't see how you can not consider Vizquel... Especially since SS is a higher defensive value than 3B...

For some reason I can't post on my usual account so I had to create this one.

Yes, they would not be in because of their defense but they also wouldn't be in if it wasn't for their offense either. So I don't consider Vizquel because I AM looking at the full picture and he wasn't good enough.

 

[soxfan148927]

The fact that people are sitting and DEBATING who should or should not be in the HOF, shows what the Hall has become. Simply a once a year party and public relations event for the city of Cooperstown and MLB. A TRUE Hall of Fame would only include players whose play left no doubt, in 99.9% of everyone's mind, that they belong. No stats would be needed, no ifs or maybes. A REAL HOF, that represents about 150 years of baseball, would have no more than 50+ players. The Cobbs, Ruths, Mantles, Mays - the best of the best. Chipper Jones on an even plain with DiMaggio? Get the hell out. The Hall is a joke.....it has become a plaything for the ''stat pack'' and has been watered down to worthlessness.

You can want a smaller hall, that's fine. But you have to draw the line somewhere and therefore there will always be debate.

 

[soxfan148927]

Now, lets move on to Larry Walkers home and away splits....

There are guys in the HOF who have similar home/road splits. Wade Boggs and Hank Greenberg come to mind.