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Good..but not Great

Discussion in 'West Virginia Mountaineers' started by GoldRusher, Dec 30, 2016.

  1. Anotherwvufan

    Anotherwvufan Well-Known Member

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    We can do better. It really starts with the QB position. Imagine what could have happened if we landed Deshaun Watson instead of Clemson? We ended up with another 4 star guy named Crest who never panned out leaving us with transfers to man our biggest need.
    It all comes down to players. If we can't crack to top 25 in recruiting, we have little chance of matching up with Oklahoma or Texas. We have to rely on JC players as we are not doing a great job of developing the players we have. WE are sitting at #40 in recruiting rankings right now with only 1 4 star guy. After a 10 win season, we should be doing much better.
     



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  2. bbwvfan

    bbwvfan Well-Known Member

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    This year's recruiting class was destroyed by Shane. He kept Dana on the hot seat for the past two seasons. You cannot expect Dana and his staff to bring in high school kids with such a cloud hanging over the program.

    JUCO's help this program shore up some much needed areas. IMO, it has little to do with the inability of the staff to develop the players they have. In fact, this staff arguably has done a wonderful job identifying talent and developing it. Simply look at the kids Dana and his staff have recruited and put in the NFL. 3 star kids...

    Dana had to go deep JUCO this year because high school kids were not sure if Dana would be retained. Once these kids commit in July, it is hard for a program like WVU to get them to flip. Easier to recruit JUCO than a high school kid who usually has been recruited since they were in the 10th grade.
     
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  3. Anotherwvufan

    Anotherwvufan Well-Known Member

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    Awful quick to blame this on Shane are we? A survey of Scout rankings shows that the best we have had under Dana was #27 in 2012 and #28 in 2013. Last year was a slight drop to #30. RR was as high as #18 and Stewart was as high as #22. Even with contract in hand, Dana did not crack the top 25 in his best years. Now that the contract is in, there is no big rush of recruits.

    Bottom line is that we don't recruit the players we really need to really compete, and never have. Keeping Dana on the hot seat may have lost us a couple of players, but I doubt it would be enough to make a difference. If we land 2 4 star players between now and signing day, we will be back to the Dana average of 27-30 which puts us at a big disadvantage lining up against Oklahoma.
     
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  4. bbwvfan

    bbwvfan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Shane gets the blame. Recruits have mentioned Dana's status and its importance in making their decisions.

    In '15, Dana had a top 20 recruiting class after the summer camps and visits. Shane failed to offer any kind of support, and the decommits started becoming a regular newsmaker. Had he not pulled off getting Ferns and White at signing day, last year's class would have been pretty weak.

    The reason you see so few high school commits is the result of 2 years of recruiting issues created by Shane. Kids are targeted in 9th and 10th grade. In '15, the high school junior class is a heavy recruit. As seniors this year, there were no relationships to foster.

    We will see improvement for the '18 and '19 classes, but I am hearing of no big stars coming on board this year.
     
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  5. WVUDAD

    WVUDAD Well-Known Member

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    How in the hell did WVU EVER manage to win a football game prior to Luck becoming AD.........WTF was Lyons to do? We are talking about a sub par coach until this year, and I question the job done by this coach this year, the B12 is WAY down in 2016 compared to years past. The fact that Holgorsen, the coach who's system is so great that it doesn't matter who is the QB, can NOT get a QB to WVU who can run his offense says it all. Trying to blame the AD for the coach's failures is laughable...........
     
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  6. GoldRusher

    GoldRusher Well-Known Member

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    WVU recruiting rankings per 247 sports:
    Currently 44th with 5 or so spots still open for the '17 class

    Final ranking

    2016= 39th
    2015= 35th
    2014= 38th
    2013= 31st
    2012= 36th
    2011= 49th
    *********
    2010= 29th
    2009= 22nd
    2008= 48th
    *********
    2007= 25th
    2006= 57th
    2005= 41st
    2004= 42nd
    2003= 54th

    the stars indicate coach changes, there have been extensions signed and coaches fired and coaches leaving and I'm gonna stop at 2003 ....


    But yea....this "disaster" is on Shane Lyons :lol::nono:
     
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  7. GoldRusher

    GoldRusher Well-Known Member

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    Now, if someone wants to put the blame on Lyons or Luck or Eddie P for not spending enough on a bunch of coaching staff members that are ace recruiters while ALL of them had a chance to.... Then you have a decent argument.
     
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  8. bbwvfan

    bbwvfan Well-Known Member

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    LOL!

    247 Composite rankings are much lower for WVU than scout.com.

    In Dana's first year, scout.com ranked the 2012 class #27. The '13 class was #28. Last year's class fell to #40 as WVU lost commit after commit due to Shane's stupidity.

    Once Shane finally announced Dana's extension, WVU got some of their most highly rated JUCO's... raising the rank from the low 50's to #40.

    This has the potential to be one of his worst recruiting classes since the '14 class. This on the heels of two of his best W/L years since joining the Big 12. He should be riding the wave... instead Shane had him doggie paddling.

    So, yeah... let's not blame the AD...

    Dana stated that having an extension would help with the recruiting. I guess he's just full of BS when he said his status has been used against him in recruiting.

    You fuckers are for real....
     
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    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  9. Slaton10

    Slaton10 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure if that is fair...signing a contract in the last two weeks and to think recruits have been sitting around waiting to make a decision on whether Dana is staying or going doesn't work that way..these kids get pressured by other schools being told they are only taking so many kids at certain positions and they are going to move on if they don't get some of verbal from them in a certain period of time so I can't blame a kid for going with something certain..can they be flipped...sure...but it ain't that easy..recruiting for kids and their families really isn't that fun..
     
  10. Slaton10

    Slaton10 Well-Known Member

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    Name a AD prior to Shane to hold up a contract..the last time it happened it was on Rich....the right thing to do is get a contract done and if necessary be able to eat the buyout if you decide to fire the guy..
     
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  11. GoldRusher

    GoldRusher Well-Known Member

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    Was he riding a wave when Luck gave him his golden extension after the Orange Bowl win? I mean we had just throttled the ACC champ in a BCS bowl and Luck gave him anything and everything that he needed as far as stability in a contract and yet... Where are the top 25 recruiting classes bb? If that's so important then we should have been knocking down top 25 classes on the regular but....that didn't happen because that's pure BS about Lyons. Heck, Stew God rest his soul, landed a top 30 class as a lame duck HC... where was his extension? ...maybe Dana just aint as good a recruiter as some want to believe:noidea:? Maybe its our gimmick defense that turns higher rated defensive recruits off and it hurts our recruiting strength? there are way too many variables involved to just blame a contract extension....that GOT DONE at the end of the day.
     
  12. GoldRusher

    GoldRusher Well-Known Member

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    Was the other coaches contracts as heavily favored towards them like Dana's was from Luck? I honestly don't know.
     
  13. bbwvfan

    bbwvfan Well-Known Member

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    Why do you twist history?

    The contract with guaranteed income was the norm at the time Luck provided his extension to Dana.

    Dana went through a ton of changes after the Orange Bowl win. Casteel and company took the road to the desert. Dana certainly screwed up some of his early hires, but how fair is it to assume he is going to have great recruiters right after going through all of the turmoil created by Billy?

    You are fucking unbelievable. Truly....

    Dana ain't a good recruiter. Never was known as one. It is why he's hired guys who are great recruiters. Once he got his guys, he needed an AD who knew what the fuck he was doing. Someone who understands how difficult it is to recruit to Morgantown. Instead, Dana gets put on the hot seat for 2 years.
     
  14. bbwvfan

    bbwvfan Well-Known Member

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    You couldn't be more spot on! Hell... the Oregon State coach was just given an extension. Hasn't had a winning season since he got there.

    As an AD, you put your HC's in the best position possible. Simple as that. No other program in America would have done what Shane did to Dana.
     
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  15. Slaton10

    Slaton10 Well-Known Member

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    What Top 30 class did Bill Stewart bring in?

    The 2010 Class that included Jeremy Johnson. Barry Brunetti, Dante Chambers, Qudral Forte, Benji Kemeatu, Deon Long, Troy Gloster and Avery Williams?...you mean that class that led to the mess Dana inherited?..and that was just the back half of a back to back recruiting disaster paired with 2009 disaster that included the likes of Logan Heastie, Dequan Hargett and Branko "The Criminal" Busick..it should have included Tajh Boyd but couldn't keep him and got lucky finding Geno Smith at the last minute..outside of striking gold in a 2 star with recruit in Terrance Garvin and a 3 star in Steadman Bailey that class was horrible
     
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  16. Anotherwvufan

    Anotherwvufan Well-Known Member

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    Some of the same guys who wanted Stewart gone after 9-3 seasons complain about not extending a coach who has finished 7-6, 7-6 and 8-5 with a 15 win 20 losses in the conference? You can say this years team is much better but in reality, those 2 extra wins came because Baylor and TCU had really bad years. Did we get better or did the conference get worse.
    Had Holgerson performed better, he would have had the contract last year, but he did not. Our rankings have probably slipped due to average performance more than contract issues. Players want to play for winners. See records listed above.
    This year we took a step in the right direction, but we don't see the hope like we say from 2005 through 2011 where we at least thought there was a chance in hell of competing for a NC. Now we compete to be somewhere behind Oklahoma near the top of the B12.
    If we like being middle of the pack, Holgs is a great coach. Recruiting classes in the 30s won't get you to the top. If Luck were here what do you think he would have done differently?
    Luck fired a coach after consecutive 9-3 seasons. he may have extended Dana, may have thought Dana wanted too much and done the same thing as Shane. I think he would have fired him and brought in someone who could recruit better. If Shane gives the extension, Holgerson fails and we pay a 10m buyout, guess who becomes the shortest lived WVU AD in history. All this while we rely on a div 1 QB to lead this team.
    Holds put himself on the hot seat with his performance, Shane inherited a tough situation. Win a few more games in 14 and beat a ranked team in 15 and the situation would have unfolded differently.
    Yes us fuckers are for real love you man
     
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  17. GoldRusher

    GoldRusher Well-Known Member

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    No question Lyons and WVU WANTED to fire Dana at the end of 2015 but the buyout and rehiring of a new coaching staff after the '15 season would have cost WVU too much financially due to the pro Dana contract that Luck signed him to, the buyout was too big (Lyons has changed that now)... WVU (and the outside financial supporters lets not forget them, some of them weren't too happy with Dana's results either) couldn't justify that so they did the prudent thing, they waited it out with what they had and hoped for a decent season/bowl game type of year.

    Low and behold we get a tipped ball for an int vs BYU , a missed FG by KState, a turnover from a bad Texas team in the red zone and a miracle catch by Shorts at home under the lights against a Baylor team that was losing every game they played and we wind up with a 10 win season, Ill take it but there ARE people in this world that would say Dana got very very LUCKY.... not all that better as a HC.

    We'll see what happens moving forward and I hope things go really well but you can bet your last dollar that after the '19 season if Dana is having similar seasons and Lyons isn't happy with our results that Dana will be gone, Lyons' hands wont be tied like they were before.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
  18. bbwvfan

    bbwvfan Well-Known Member

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    I have been pretty consistent here. I don't think this year's team is any better than last year's. In fact, I think the '14 team was better than this year's.

    And, if y'all can't see that... then I don't know what to say.

    In '14, WVU was coming off one of its worst years since '01. As I've stated... the '13 team was one of the youngest teams in the country. The defense was depleted at year's end of starters, and they were forced to play a ton of true FR and RS FR that season.

    In '14, WVU went toe to toe with Bama in the season opener. Went toe to toe with OU. Knocked off BU, and lost on a last second FG to TCU. None of us knew that Trickett was playing that game with a concussion. None of us knew he faked the medical staff to stay on the field for the next 1 1/2 games.

    The '14 and '15 seasons were two of the most difficult... most challenging schedules in the history of WVU football.

    WVU has NEVER done well... year in... year out... against schedules as difficult as those two.

    I'm amazed that anyone who has followed WVU football for any time thinks differently.

    There is no example anyone can provide of a WVU HC who's faced anything like this. Dana earned the right to an extension after the '14 season. I'm sure Luck would have done it. He wasn't a stupid fuck like Shane.
     
  19. Anotherwvufan

    Anotherwvufan Well-Known Member

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    and how many ranked teams did we beat those 2 years? 2014 we looked good, however we lost 4 of the last 5 games. 2015 we lost badly to every ranked team on the schedule and were manhandled by a Baylor team that we beat the previous year. If not for the buyout (which I believe was more than the Coliseum renovation) he should have been canned. We were probably better in 2014 than the past two years, but Holgs could not take advantage of that.


    Does a 15-20 conference record and a 5th place finish justify a 10 million buyout? No in my world. The plan was to wait another year, let the golden buyout pass and use the savings to lure someone better to the program. A 10 win year changed the plan

    Next year should be another good opportunity. Baylor should still be down Tech and Oklahoma lose good QBs, Perine will be gone. Holgs is getting better with his game day calls. Gibson is doing good things with the 3-3-5 and for the first time since Geno, we have a legitimate threat at QB together with a strong returning stable of RBs. If we can get to 1st or 2nd in the conference, recruiting classes should follow. The future looks bright, or at least a bit better than mediocre.

    Considering Shanes decisions, Holgs could be in Oregon right now and Gibby could be the coach, or he could have retained a coach who could have easily ended up with another 7-6 season and had to pay a buyout so large that Gibby would be the only guy he could afford. In the realm of potential screw ups, I don't think he did too bad.
     
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  20. bbwvfan

    bbwvfan Well-Known Member

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    How many ranked teams has WVU historically beaten? How many top 10 teams has WVU historically beaten?

    The buyout was not some monster. It could have been easily handled by boosters and creative payment plans. You guys are making way too much of the costs involved in firing him after the '15 season.

    No AD worth a shit would have decided to keep a HC on the staff simply because they couldn't afford to buy out the contract. Hell... KU got rid of a couple of coaches... Weis being one... who were let go without concern for costs.

    Give me a break with this nonsense...