From Jason La Canfora today- JimmyG...thoughts?

[richig07]

Or why not force New England to deal with the situation next year and get nothing for him... (Thats what I mean about, itd be nice if the league could collude here and stick it to the Pats on this one! )

Because we don't have the luxury of time.

If we lay another complete egg next year, and don't show signs of competitiveness. Fox is gone, Pace is on the hot seat, and a lot of the good young personnel we have put together on defense may be gone. We blow this whole thing up, again... and start all over... again.

I don't care about the Patriots. They're not our concern. They're not in our conference, and we don't even play them this season.

Our concern is finding a QB. I really like Jimmy G, and I want him here. We're also saving money if we bring him here now, and we essentially get a one year trial. Before determining how much we have to pay him, or we could sign him to a deal prior to the season. Which would be cheaper than letting him hit the open market as well.

I'm giving a 2nd and a 3rd in a heart beat. Unless we can get McCarron, who may come cheaper and I like just as much.

 

[anotheridiot]

Blow it up again? It was not blown up yet. That is the whole problem. They want us to believe we are retooling since it validates a shit organization if you use the term rebuild.

 

[Payton]

Because we don't have the luxury of time.

If we lay another complete egg next year, and don't show signs of competitiveness. Fox is gone, Pace is on the hot seat, and a lot of the good young personnel we have put together on defense may be gone. We blow this whole thing up, again... and start all over... again.

I don't care about the Patriots. They're not our concern. They're not in our conference, and we don't even play them this season.

Our concern is finding a QB. I really like Jimmy G, and I want him here. We're also saving money if we bring him here now, and we essentially get a one year trial. Before determining how much we have to pay him, or we could sign him to a deal prior to the season. Which would be cheaper than letting him hit the open market as well.

I'm giving a 2nd and a 3rd in a heart beat. Unless we can get McCarron, who may come cheaper and I like just as much.

I do care about the Patriots in the sense that they have offloaded two Brady backups and neither turned out to be worth even close to what you appear to be hoping Garrappalo would be for us...

Again, I'm willing to kick the tires on a deal, but if Bellichick wants the #3 overall? Or our 2nd AND 3rd? I'd tell him to pound sand... I'll go ask Tampa about Mike Glennon, or ride Hoyer for one more year.

 

[Payton]

I still count him as better than solid.

Not in his last year. He was terrible.

 

[Payton]

Yes, with an HISTORICALLY great defense, you can win with a game manager. Ala, 00 Ravens and 15 Broncos.

I'll agree to not claim 2015 Peyton as "elite". If you agree not to claim that Denver defense was anything but historically phenomenal.

So yeah... you want to bring up those two examples of Dilfer and a 40 year old Peyton. Fine. However, outside of that, there really isn't much debate. Even Eli and Flacco, who aren't "elite"... they had "elite" level post-seasons. Especially Flacco in 2012. He went completely ballistic.

Brad Johnson...

And do we want to bring up all the so-so QBs who made Superbowls but didn't win?

It happens more frequently than we'd like to admit... Not to mention VERY competitive teams in the playoffs that might not have elite QBs...

Either way, I'm not sure why you jumped in to answer my response here to someone else, especially if your angle is that you want Garrappalo... Unless you're trying to tell us that you believe Garrappalo to be "Elite"?

 

[richig07]

Blow it up again? It was not blown up yet. That is the whole problem. They want us to believe we are retooling since it validates a shit organization if you use the term rebuild.

What? Literally the only thing that wasn't blown up was the QB position, because we would have had to eat 36 million if we cut Jay. The staff was blown up, the personnel was blown up. Jesus AI... get a clue sometimes.

 

[richig07]

I do care about the Patriots in the sense that they have offloaded two Brady backups and neither turned out to be worth even close to what you appear to be hoping Garrappalo would be for us...

Again, I'm willing to kick the tires on a deal, but if Bellichick wants the #3 overall? Or our 2nd AND 3rd? I'd tell him to pound sand... I'll go ask Tampa about Mike Glennon, or ride Hoyer for one more year.

I do care about the Patriots in the sense that they have offloaded two Brady backups and neither turned out to be worth even close to what you appear to be hoping Garrappalo would be for us...

This again? Really? Ugh... Cassel and Mallett were NOBODIES. Mid and late round picks. Jimmy G was regarded by many as a top QB prospect out of college, and some even felt he was the best in that class. It's a far different story. It's not comparable. Not to mention, Mallett was not unloaded to be Houston's starter. He was traded for a 6th round pick, and only due to the fact that he was not going to make NE's roster. Since they just drafted Jimmy G. Cassel was the only one who came out of there to be a starter, and for the record. He had a heck of a first season with KC.

Again, I'm willing to kick the tires on a deal, but if Bellichick wants the #3 overall? Or our 2nd AND 3rd? I'd tell him to pound sand... I'll go ask Tampa about Mike Glennon, or ride Hoyer for one more year.

Yeah, because it's not as though a franchise QB is more valuable than what you would get in the 2nd and 3rd. ... If the FO thinks Jimmy G is truly a franchise QB, a 2nd and 3rd is a bargain.

 

[richig07]

Brad Johnson...

And do we want to bring up all the so-so QBs who made Superbowls but didn't win?

It happens more frequently than we'd like to admit... Not to mention VERY competitive teams in the playoffs that might not have elite QBs...

Either way, I'm not sure why you jumped in to answer my response here to someone else, especially if your angle is that you want Garrappalo... Unless you're trying to tell us that you believe Garrappalo to be "Elite"?

Brad Johnson was an MVP candidate that year, who ALSO had a record setting defense that is arguably top 5 of all-time.

Try again.

Why the hell would I think Jimmy G is already "elite"? He's played two games. lol. No QB just starts his career as "elite". What an absurd statement. With young QB's, whether it be the draft, trade... etc... you're taking a shot at the potential that could be "elite". Of course, I don't feel he's a great QB yet. How is that a knock on him? It's his talent, that is attractive.

 

[Payton]

I do care about the Patriots in the sense that they have offloaded two Brady backups and neither turned out to be worth even close to what you appear to be hoping Garrappalo would be for us...

This again? Really? Ugh... Cassel and Mallett were NOBODIES. Mid and late round picks. Jimmy G was regarded by many as a top QB prospect out of college, and some even felt he was the best in that class. It's a far different story. It's not comparable. Not to mention, Mallett was not unloaded to be Houston's starter. He was traded for a 6th round pick, and only due to the fact that he was not going to make NE's roster. Since they just drafted Jimmy G. Cassel was the only one who came out of there to be a starter, and for the record. He had a heck of a first season with KC.

Again, I'm willing to kick the tires on a deal, but if Bellichick wants the #3 overall? Or our 2nd AND 3rd? I'd tell him to pound sand... I'll go ask Tampa about Mike Glennon, or ride Hoyer for one more year.

Yeah, because it's not as though a franchise QB is more valuable than what you would get in the 2nd and 3rd. ... If the FO thinks Jimmy G is truly a franchise QB, a 2nd and 3rd is a bargain.

The POSIBILITY of a franchise QB, and I dont need to remind you the numerous other ways to acquire a POSSIBLE franchise QB Im sure... And not valuing 2nd and 3rd round picks has been the bane of MANY a cellar dwellar in this league, but again, you know that.

And we can even move beyond the Patriots to other traded "shiney object" backups that turned out to be nothing more than polished turds...

Last time, I dont mind trying for Garrappalo, but dont care to overpay. At the end of the day our disagreement is primarily about how much is it worth to try here.

 

[Payton]

Brad Johnson was an MVP candidate that year, who ALSO had a record setting defense that is arguably top 5 of all-time.

Try again.

Why the hell would I think Jimmy G is already "elite"? He's played two games. lol. No QB just starts his career as "elite". What an absurd statement. With young QB's, whether it be the draft, trade... etc... you're taking a shot at the potential that could be "elite". Of course, I don't feel he's a great QB yet. How is that a knock on him? It's his talent, that is attractive.

So again... A stab in the dark for a guy who MIGHT be a great QB for us...

And for the love of god stop being a wise ass... There are plenty of teams that could take the Bears behind the fucking woodshed that do not have elite QBs.... And you cant discount the point by saying, "Oh, but he had a great year!!!". Whatever. Brad Johnson is not elite. Flacco is not elite, Eli is not elite, etc... All youre saying is that a decent QB can have a great year. Well no shit!

And our coach doesnt build teams around QBs. Never has. Delhomme ring a bell? (Yes, yes... he had a "great year"... Whatever)

 

[Beengay fudgepackers]

Not in his last year. He was terrible.

IDC about stats. Having Peyton Manning as QB still helped that team win a super bowl. I really don't care if he was terrible that year. He was still more than a solid QB.

 

[richig07]

The POSIBILITY of a franchise QB, and I dont need to remind you the numerous other ways to acquire a POSSIBLE franchise QB Im sure... And not valuing 2nd and 3rd round picks has been the bane of MANY a cellar dwellar in this league, but again, you know that.

And we can even move beyond the Patriots to other traded "shiney object" backups that turned out to be nothing more than polished turds...

Last time, I dont mind trying for Garrappalo, but dont care to overpay. At the end of the day our disagreement is primarily about how much is it worth to try here.

Fair enough. However, a 2nd and 3rd is not overpaying though. If he turns out to even just be a SOLID QB. A 2nd and 3rd is a bargain.

What are the other ways? Trubisky with the #3 overall, or Watson with the #3 overall? So... you are more comfortable reaching for a QB that would be a mid-late selection in a good QB class with the #3 overall. However, you are not comfortable using a 2nd and 3rd to acquire a QB that is probably a better prospect than both of those two? There is no logic behind that. Jimmy G would be the first QB taken in this draft, if he was inserted into it today and you can take that to the bank.

 

[Payton]

IDC about stats. Having Peyton Manning as QB still helped that team win a super bowl. I really don't care if he was terrible that year. He was still more than a solid QB.

Id argue that Denver won several games in spite of Peyton, but okay.

 

[Payton]

Fair enough. However, a 2nd and 3rd is not overpaying though. If he turns out to even just be a SOLID QB. A 2nd and 3rd is a bargain.

What are the other ways? Trubisky with the #3 overall, or Watson with the #3 overall? So... you are more comfortable reaching for a QB that would be a mid-late selection in a good QB class with the #3 overall. However, you are not comfortable using a 2nd and 3rd to acquire a QB that is probably a better prospect than both of those two? There is no logic behind that. Jimmy G would be the first QB taken in this draft, if he was inserted into it today and you can take that to the bank.

Trying to respond on my phone, so hard to piece answer together... LOL!

Ill try to respo d when I get on a computer... Id hate to use the #3 on a QB though... Ill say that much.

 

[richig07]

So again... A stab in the dark for a guy who MIGHT be a great QB for us...

And for the love of god stop being a wise ass... There are plenty of teams that could take the Bears behind the fucking woodshed that do not have elite QBs.... And you cant discount the point by saying, "Oh, but he had a great year!!!". Whatever. Brad Johnson is not elite. Flacco is not elite, Eli is not elite, etc... All youre saying is that a decent QB can have a great year. Well no shit!

And our coach doesnt build teams around QBs. Never has. Delhomme ring a bell? (Yes, yes... he had a "great year"... Whatever)

And for the love of god stop being a wise ass...

Fair enough, but I find the notion that you don't need a top QB today, to be utterly silly. I'll stop being a smart ass, but jeez... How can Bears fans still not get it? After all of these years of QB failure.

There are plenty of teams that could take the Bears behind the fucking woodshed that do not have elite QBs....

Is beating up on the Bears supposed to be an accomplishment? Lol. Also, one of the reasons they COULD do that, is due to the fact... THAT WE DON'T HAVE A QB.

And you cant discount the point by saying, "Oh, but he had a great year!!!".

YES! Actually, I can. You know why? Because he played at an ELITE LEVEL that season.

All three of those QB's are the only one's who you could argue aren't elite to win a SB since Dilfer. However, all three played at an ELITE level during the playoffs.

All I said is that you need elite QB play. Generally, yes... that will come from an elite QB. However, heck... if a decent QB can play at an elite level for a season. Then, hell... great. However, that's not extremely common, and you still need a QB capable of doing that.

Here go bud... just for you. Since Dilfer.

01 - Brady (GOAT)

02 - Brad Johnson (MVP season)

03 - Brady

04 - Brady

05 - Ben

06 - Peyton

07 - Eli (elite level play during post-season)

08 - Ben

09 - Brees

10 - Rodgers

11 - Eli (elite level play... again... during the post-season)

12 - Flacco (one of the best post-season QB runs of all-time)

13 - Wilson

14 - Brady

15 - Peyton (Top 3 all-time defense, arguably)

16 - Brady


So, in all of those seasons, you have 4-5 seasons where a QB was not elite. Two had historically great defense's, the other three. Those QB's were able to step up and have phenomenal post-season play. Only one, in Peyton was not playing at an elite level in their respected post-seasons. While, as mentioned, his defense was making history.

In conclusion, the QB position. Especially in today's climate, is the most assured way to make yourself a contender.

Fox doesn't build around QB's? Hmm... #1 - The game was a lot different when he was in Carolina, as opposed to how it evolved the past 5-6 years alone. #2 - Dehlomme was DAMN good in Carolina. Jake Delhomme Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com Made a pro bowl, went 53-37 and put up extremely impressive numbers for that time of QB play. Back when 3,000+ yards was a serious achievement.

#3 - Peyton Manning setting points scored records for Fox ring a bell?

 

[Payton]

And for the love of god stop being a wise ass...

Fair enough, but I find the notion that you don't need a top QB today, to be utterly silly. I'll stop being a smart ass, but jeez... How can Bears fans still not get it? After all of these years of QB failure.

"All these years", born of the last time we went out and over spent on the last "Shiny Object" QB, right? Doesn't mean we never try again, but once again... Do NOT overpay!!!

Is beating up on the Bears supposed to be an accomplishment? Lol. Also, one of the reasons they COULD do that, is due to the fact... THAT WE DON'T HAVE A QB.

Or that we DON'T HAVE WRs, or that we DON'T HAVE A SECONDARY, or....... or........ or.......

Again, this is/has been/and remains our fundamental difference.

We are quite a bit more than good QB play from being contenders... I believe we are heading in the right direction, but overpaying for a QB is NOT critical at this juncture...

YES! Actually, I can. You know why? Because he played at an ELITE LEVEL that season.

All three of those QB's are the only one's who you could argue aren't elite to win a SB since Dilfer. However, all three played at an ELITE level during the playoffs.

All I said is that you need elite QB play. Generally, yes... that will come from an elite QB. However, heck... if a decent QB can play at an elite level for a season. Then, hell... great. However, that's not extremely common, and you still need a QB capable of doing that.

No, you cannot say we need to overpay for a lottery ticket, say we need an "elite QB" and attempt to prove your point by citing "decent QBs" who lit it up for a year.

THAT supports MY argument, rich... Or can you not see that? Want a list of QBs who are NOT "elite" but had "elite" years?

Your list is cute, "BUD" (<--- See you couldn't knock it off, even though you said you would, PAL!!!)...

The list of QBs that make the Superbowl that are NOT elite but had very good years is pretty long...

So, in all of those seasons, you have 4-5 seasons where a QB was not elite. Two had historically great defense's, the other three. Those QB's were able to step up and have phenomenal post-season play. Only one, in Peyton was not playing at an elite level in their respected post-seasons. While, as mentioned, his defense was making history.

In conclusion, the QB position. Especially in today's climate, is the most assured way to make yourself a contender.

Remove word "contender" and make it "competitive" and I'll say okay... The Saints aren't "contenders". The Colts aren't "contenders"... The Chiefs were though... The Texans were though...

In Conclulsion, there are plenty of counter examples...

And let's take a look at the franchises who are owning most of those championships, shall we?

The Patriots, The Steelers, The Packers, etc...

Teams that do it RIGHT... WE are NOT a quarterback away!!! Sorry!!!

But for the 28th time, I'm not saying that means ignore the position. We just aren't in that position to go out and overpay for an UNPROVEN QB just because he had good marks in his draft class and sat a lot with the Patriots!

Fox doesn't build around QB's? Hmm... #1 - The game was a lot different when he was in Carolina, as opposed to how it evolved the past 5-6 years alone. #2 - Dehlomme was DAMN good in Carolina. Jake Delhomme Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com Made a pro bowl, went 53-37 and put up extremely impressive numbers for that time of QB play. Back when 3,000+ yards was a serious achievement.

#3 - Peyton Manning setting points scored records for Fox ring a bell?

No, Fox doesn't build around QBs... Delhomme played out of his mind and the rest of his career bears that out... With Manning, Fox just had to run the defense which he EXCELS at... Manning ran his own offense and did his thing as he always did (Up until the final year or so)... Fox didn't BUILD around Manning. The Broncos were a team on the cusp and they brought in a PROVEN elite QB to put them over the top...

In what way in HELL are the Bears even CLOSE to that?

 

[anotheridiot]

What? Literally the only thing that wasn't blown up was the QB position, because we would have had to eat 36 million if we cut Jay. The staff was blown up, the personnel was blown up. Jesus AI... get a clue sometimes.

you show me one writer or reporter that has used the term rebuild. It has always been considered retool.

 

[Payton]

@richig07 I'm done here, but let me just say that it fucking baffles me that you (well... we. ) really get contentious over this when our only real disagreement is the price we are willing to pay for Garoppolo...

Unless we can get him fairly cheap, I'd rather add a few more pieces through the draft and let Hoyer/Barkley/Shaw get us through this year and wait for next to address the position...

And not just Garoppolo... If we can get Glennon fairly cheap or I'll buy your idea of McCarron...

The last time we bickered on this topic it was about giving the farm for Cousins...

I just don't think we're a franchise that's ready to do that. I actually argued two or two and a half years ago when the 'Skins were still enamored with RGIII that we should have given the Redskins the 3rd round pick that they would have GLADLY taken at the time for Cousins... THAT is when you make that kind of move... Well run franchises don't overpay for another team's cast-offs unless it is the final piece of the puzzle...

 

[richig07]

"All these years", born of the last time we went out and over spent on the last "Shiny Object" QB, right? Doesn't mean we never try again, but once again... Do NOT overpay!!!



Or that we DON'T HAVE WRs, or that we DON'T HAVE A SECONDARY, or....... or........ or.......

Again, this is/has been/and remains our fundamental difference.

We are quite a bit more than good QB play from being contenders... I believe we are heading in the right direction, but overpaying for a QB is NOT critical at this juncture...



No, you cannot say we need to overpay for a lottery ticket, say we need an "elite QB" and attempt to prove your point by citing "decent QBs" who lit it up for a year.

THAT supports MY argument, rich... Or can you not see that? Want a list of QBs who are NOT "elite" but had "elite" years?

Your list is cute, "BUD" (<--- See you couldn't knock it off, even though you said you would, PAL!!!)...

The list of QBs that make the Superbowl that are NOT elite but had very good years is pretty long...







Remove word "contender" and make it "competitive" and I'll say okay... The Saints aren't "contenders". The Colts aren't "contenders"... The Chiefs were though... The Texans were though...

In Conclulsion, there are plenty of counter examples...

And let's take a look at the franchises who are owning most of those championships, shall we?

The Patriots, The Steelers, The Packers, etc...

Teams that do it RIGHT... WE are NOT a quarterback away!!! Sorry!!!

But for the 28th time, I'm not saying that means ignore the position. We just aren't in that position to go out and overpay for an UNPROVEN QB just because he had good marks in his draft class and sat a lot with the Patriots!





No, Fox doesn't build around QBs... Delhomme played out of his mind and the rest of his career bears that out... With Manning, Fox just had to run the defense which he EXCELS at... Manning ran his own offense and did his thing as he always did (Up until the final year or so)... Fox didn't BUILD around Manning. The Broncos were a team on the cusp and they brought in a PROVEN elite QB to put them over the top...

In what way in HELL are the Bears even CLOSE to that?

No, the "good" QB's having "elite" seasons supports my argument. You need "elite" QB play to win the Super Bowl,close to 100% of the time. Meaning, you need a QB capable of doing that. Which is all I am saying. Then, we see from history... that without a true elite QB, you ALSO (like those teams) need a TOP defense. Half of those teams, had one of the top D's of all-time. Even if you completely take out those QB's elite seasons, It's still only 5 teams this side of the century who won without an quote; "Elite" QB. This isn't an argument. The VAST majority of the time you need an elite QB, and if you don't have that... you still need elite QB level play, unless you have Denver's D in 2015. What's the best way to get "elite" level QB play? Oh yeah... a fucking elite QB. lol

No, Fox doesn't build around QBs... Delhomme played out of his mind and the rest of his career bears that out... With Manning, Fox just had to run the defense which he EXCELS at... Manning ran his own offense and did his thing as he always did (Up until the final year or so)... Fox didn't BUILD around Manning. The Broncos were a team on the cusp and they brought in a PROVEN elite QB to put them over the top...

This entire paragraph is a contradiction. When Delhomme was young, even according to you; he "played out of his mind". He put up amazing passing numbers for those times, and that offense was definitely geared towards the passing game. With two pro bowl receivers, in Mushin and Steve Smith. So... how is that not building around a QB?

Also, Fox's team wasn't built around Peyton? What the fuck? Their D was horrendous his first year there in 2012, and he set the points for record. In 2013, when they went to the Super Bowl? They were the 23rd ranked defense. Without Peyton, they would have been a downright poor team. How is that not having a team that is built around your QB?

Not to mention, even if he didn't build around Delhomme in Carolina. Those were the early and mid-00's. Look at how much the game has changed now.


For the LAST time... a 2nd and 3rd for a franchise QB? That would be the #1 QB taken in this draft class? That' NOT overpaying. I cannot even comprehend how you think that.

Your way gets Fox fired and kickstarts another rebuild. Mine, makes us a possible playoff contender this season.

Or that we DON'T HAVE WRs, or that we DON'T HAVE A SECONDARY, or....... or........ or.......

We actually have a defense that spent most of the season ranked in the top ten, and as high as 6th. Despite an insane amount of injuries. If we had a QB that was solid, and by some miracle managed to stay semi-healthy, we would instantly become rather legit.

Regardless, your original point holds no merit. "There's plenty of teams without elite QB's that would roll over the Bears". What does that have to do with anything... BUDDY OLD PAL... lol. It's still not an accomplishment to beat us. So, why does a team without an elite QB beating us, mean anything?

You guys are delusional, and are still stuck in this mindset from 20 years ago. Where you think you can hide your QB. Give me a god damn break. What a complete and utter joke. Look around the league, for chrissake! Who has the most consistent success? Teams with great QB play.

A 2nd and a 3rd! My god... even for just a solid, consistent QB. That's utterly amazing.

 

[richig07]

@richig07 I'm done here, but let me just say that it fucking baffles me that you (well... we. ) really get contentious over this when our only real disagreement is the price we are willing to pay for Garoppolo...

Unless we can get him fairly cheap, I'd rather add a few more pieces through the draft and let Hoyer/Barkley/Shaw get us through this year and wait for next to address the position...

And not just Garoppolo... If we can get Glennon fairly cheap or I'll buy your idea of McCarron...

The last time we bickered on this topic it was about giving the farm for Cousins...

I just don't think we're a franchise that's ready to do that. I actually argued two or two and a half years ago when the 'Skins were still enamored with RGIII that we should have given the Redskins the 3rd round pick that they would have GLADLY taken at the time for Cousins... THAT is when you make that kind of move... Well run franchises don't overpay for another team's cast-offs unless it is the final piece of the puzzle...

We have a top ten defense, right now. We're that one or two high level guys away from it really coming together We have an offensive line that REALLY started gelling last year. We have a young pro bowl RB. We lost our entire receiving corp and TE due to injuries. We were rolling out our entire practice squad the second half of the year. Get those guys healthy, bring back Jeffery along with Jimmy G, Kirk, McCarron... etc... Maybe another veteran WR that'll come cheap like Garcon, as an insurance policy for White. You cannot sit here and tell me we cannot compete with good QB play. It will elevate EVERYONE on that offense.

We are not that far man...