Ex-Alabama QBs: 'Nick Saban screwed us'

[nddulac]

I'm going to say no way Saban would even remotely take such a risk.

I hope you are right. I would like to believe that no school would take the kind of shortcuts that North Carolina took. But the reality is that what happened at North Carolina could happen at any school at any level. As soon as you attach money to any particular outcome, be it athletic or academic, or whatever, the temptation to take shortcut to insure that revenue stream will always be present.

 

[nddulac]

I left a probably obvious point out of my "distribution" statement: The selection process a school employs will definitely skew the distribution on way or another. So obviously, a Stanford will have very few of the hopeless students compared to the gifted ones, but they will still have the hopeless ones. And this is true despite a rigorous selection process!

I could be wrong, but it would seem that, for example, a student who got in by other means at say, Stanford, they would come closer to meeting Stanford's requirements than a student who got in to a school with lower requirements by other means would to meeting Stanford's requirements.

Chances are that a weak student who skirts the rigors of the Stanford selection process will have come from a more affluent background. And to be sure, quality K-12 schools are more available to the affluent than those who are economically disadvantaged. So, your assumption will probably hold as a trend. But I am sure you can find individuals for whom the argument will absolutely not hold. But that is picking nits.

 

[Codaxx]

But this is just an assumption on your part.

Plenty of players over the years have stated the same. Tell me why the failure rate is higher among incoming freshmen with better academic backgrounds than football players? Feel free to drink the Kool Aid

 

[4down20]

I hope you are right. I would like to believe that no school would take the kind of shortcuts that North Carolina took. But the reality is that what happened at North Carolina could happen at any school at any level. As soon as you attach money to any particular outcome, be it athletic or academic, or whatever, the temptation to take shortcut to insure that revenue stream will always be present.

It could happen, but that doesn't mean schools shouldn't spend resources towards making sure their athletes get the proper education and actually go to school.

I'm sure some players take the easiest classes possible, but I think it's a matter of goals rather than SAT scores.

 

[nddulac]

It could happen, but that doesn't mean schools shouldn't spend resources towards making sure their athletes get the proper education and actually go to school.

I agree. However, the goal of making sure students-athletes are educated is not necessarily aligned with the goal of making sure that student-athletes are eligible (or graduate.)

North Carolina clearly knew the distinction and exploited the hell out of it.

 

[4down20]

Plenty of players over the years have stated the same. Tell me why the failure rate is higher among incoming freshmen with better academic backgrounds than football players? Feel free to drink the Kool Aid

Because those incoming freshman do not get near the support the football players do, nor do they have coaches and other authority figures standing over them all year long making sure they do the right things.

1 kid is walking into a basically structureless environment for the first times in their lives and the consequences don't hit until it's near too late. And the football players are walking into what is probably the most structured environment they've ever lived in with consequences for their actions.

That's not hard to figure out at all. I remember when I was younger and I got my first few jobs, I had a bad habit where I would work until I got paid. Then I wouldn't want to go back to work until I partied my cash away for the most part. But when I joined the military, obviously that kind of thing didn't fly. The difference is - structured environment with immediate consequences.

 

[nddulac]

I think it also is worth noting on this topic, that Cardale Jones said basically the same thing as Josh Rosen said just a few years ago. Jones was raked over the coals and ridiculed. Rosen was defended by Pat Forde.

Can anyone think of a difference that might explain the disparity in reactions?

 

[4down20]

I agree. However, the goal of making sure students-athletes are educated is not necessarily aligned with the goal of making sure that student-athletes are eligible (or graduate.)

North Carolina clearly knew the distinction and exploited the hell out of it.

That is on the players/students.

Although the making up of easy classes specifically to suit them is obviously too far, in the end I think the students will get what they want out of it. If they take all the easy classes, that's on them, the school can't say - hey, you must be an engineer!

As the old saying goes, you can buy them books and send them to school, but you can't keep them from chewing on the covers.

 

[nddulac]

This is really a topic for a different thread. But ....

That is on the players/students.

You should read the book "Cheated" about the North Carolina scandal. It was not on the players/students. They actually had very little input into what was happening.

 

[4down20]

This is really a topic for a different thread. But ....


You should read the book "Cheated" about the North Carolina scandal. It was not on the players/students. They actually had very little input into what was happening.

Did they think they were getting computer science degrees or something?

 

[nddulac]

Did they think they were getting computer science degrees or something?

There was an instance of academic councilors changing a player's major for a few hours while the NCAA did an audit of academic progress toward degree ... and then changed it back after the NCAA crew left.

 

[Rolltide94]

There was an instance of academic councilors changing a player's major for a few hours while the NCAA did an audit of academic progress toward degree ... and then changed it back after the NCAA crew left.

Do you think the academic reputation of the school put it in a class where the level of outside oversight was less than it would be at other schools.

While I think some form of 'steering' athletes to majors goes on at every major school, some of what I read from the UNC case went way beyond that.

 

[nddulac]

Do you think the academic reputation of the school put it in a class where the level of outside oversight was less than it would be at other schools.

Not really. I think that what happened at North Carolina can happen anywhere. And I do mean anywhere.

While I think some form of 'steering' athletes to majors goes on at every major school, some of what I read from the UNC case went way beyond that.

What happened at North Carolina made a complete farce of higher education. Were I a rank-and-file student at UNC during the past 20 years, I would be pissed in that the athletic department has opened the door to question the validity of every single degree the university has conferred in the time span under consideration.

Keep in mind that the university's defense is that the bogus classes were open to any student, so it is not a athletic issue. As such, all of their degree programs are suspect.

 

[Deep Creek]

Even the mst selective schools have students who are at the lowest ends of the curve nationally - not just at their respective schools.

Absolutely true. I had ex students come back from some Ivy League schools (as well as other "prestigeous" schools) and told me of numerous classmates that were questionable at best. But, their families were HUGE donors/alumni from that particular institution. But the ex student wasn't upset about it. Said those families contributions provided his and other economically disadvantaged students with their scholarships. Point is not all students at the "high flying" institutions are academic whizzes either.

 

[4down20]

There was an instance of academic councilors changing a player's major for a few hours while the NCAA did an audit of academic progress toward degree ... and then changed it back after the NCAA crew left.

Stuff like that is messed up, but when I say it's on the players/students that doesn't really apply. Surely the students would have known they weren't getting a legit education and were just ok with it right?

 

[Deep Creek]

It could happen, but that doesn't mean schools shouldn't spend resources towards making sure their athletes get the proper education and actually go to school.

I'm sure some players take the easiest classes possible, but I think it's a matter of goals rather than SAT scores.

If confidentiality laws were changed, every student's schedule could be posted for the world to see exactly what they are taking. That'd change a lot of shit.

 

[nddulac]

Stuff like that is messed up, but when I say it's on the players/students that doesn't really apply. Surely the students would have known they weren't getting a legit education and were just ok with it right?

I'm confused by your question.

Sure - students should be able to recognize whether or not their education is working, because education is all about learning how to critically evaluate things - like the quality of an education. So if the education fails, the ability to critically evaluate the quality of the education is going to as well. So this is not going to be a very good test due to the high correlation of variables.

That said, when someone perpetrates a fraud, we tend to hold the perpetrator responsible rather than the person who was defrauded. In this case, to hold the students responsible would be to expect them to discount the advice they receive from academic advisors - people in whom they should be able to trust and in whom a lack of trust is not supported.

 

[umichgradfan]

I'd like to see the NCAA reduce the minimum number of credits scholarship athletes have to take from 12 to 9. This is not to say that they couldn't take more if they wanted to do so, but it's a more realistic number for students who are also competing in a sport at a high level.

 

[Rolltide94]

Not really. I think that what happened at North Carolina can happen anywhere. And I do mean anywhere.


What happened at North Carolina made a complete farce of higher education. Were I a rank-and-file student at UNC during the past 20 years, I would be pissed in that the athletic department has opened the door to question the validity of every single degree the university has conferred in the time span under consideration.

Keep in mind that the university's defense is that the bogus classes were open to any student, so it is not a athletic issue. As such, all of their degree programs are suspect.

I am sure there were some legit students majoring in African American Studies at UNC...I'm guessing that doesn't carry the same weight it once did in academic circles.

Not that UNC is alone, I am immediately suspicious of any school whose most common athletic major is General Studies.

 

[4down20]

I'm confused by your question.

Sure - students should be able to recognize whether or not their education is working, because education is all about learning how to critically evaluate things - like the quality of an education. So if the education fails, the ability to critically evaluate the quality of the education is going to as well. So this is not going to be a very good test due to the high correlation of variables.

That said, when someone perpetrates a fraud, we tend to hold the perpetrator responsible rather than the person who was defrauded. In this case, to hold the students responsible would be to expect them to discount the advice they receive from academic advisors - people in whom they should be able to trust and in whom a lack of trust is not supported.

What UNC did was obviously wrong and shouldn't happen. Outright, just shouldn't be that way.

But would that have happened with a player who wants a real education? Or is it only possible due to the player themselves going along with it?