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Date living in less infamy but still pretty sucky

JohnU

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Just reminded of a trade that might have been worse -- Nolan Ryan to the Angels and Jim Fregosi to the Mets.

Dec. 10, 1971
 

eburg5000

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It wasn't as high profile as the Robinson trade, But the Tony Perez trade to the Expos, might have hurt the Reds more because it destroyed the chemistry of the BRM. The Reds may have put together a few more WS titles
 

Hit-n-Run

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Bob Howsam always said trading Tony Perez was a mistake.

Frank Robinson, Lee May, and Tony Perez were all unpopular trades at the time. The Lee May trade would later redeem itself with the two World Championships.
 

JohnU

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I recall talking to Jim McIntyre, who was the Reds play by play guy a few years before the Morgan-May trade, saying that the Reds would be worse off with Morgan than May, claiming Morgan had a bad attitude. Maybe from a social standpoint, that might have been true at the time. I wasn't up close and personal with the team, of course.

I can't recall if the Nuxhall trade (Jan 1961) was unpopular. I suppose it was. Nux went to KC and that was the only year (1961) that he wasn't with the Reds during his career. It was also the only time in his playing career that the Reds won a pennant. (Johnny Briggs and John Tsitouris?)

BRIGGS HAD A HELLUVA CAREER

Speaking of Reds announcers, there have been plenty.

THE LIST
 

chico ruiz

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it's hard to imagine worse moves, by the reds, than the robinson for papas trade, but there have been. bowden's trade for junior was more of a public relations move, than a well designed thoughtful trade, put together to improve the ball club overall. they may have sold more tickets for a year, but it utterly destroyed the team for a decade. the starting pitching during the junior years was, if you can believe this, worse than the 2016 reds. i'm sure some of you remember the 2001 staff. there was no way the reds were going to win anything during most of those years. how could, in good conscience, a gm do that to a team? looking back; there was no pretense made of the actual ability to be a winning ball club. the very idea of putting a competitive team on the field was thrown out the window. the front office must have known this. "come see the kid swing the bat." end of story. i guess they were banking on the everyday reds fan being stupid. well, we weren't. the reds lost almost 1 million in attendance from 2000 to 2001. is that some kind of record? a pathetic, greedy, ill-advised, and -mostly- irresponsible move that buried a franchise for at least a decade. it's difficult for a smaller market mlb franchise to recover from such incompetence. the reds lost robinson but were still a good winning ball club. the reds acquired junior and were, for the most part, not even competitive for a decade. dictionary - boondoggle - definition = (see reds trade for ken griffey jr.)

the reds only had 2 losing seasons, in the 21 seasons, between 1961 and 1981. they came in first or second 11 times. under today's playoff format, they would have been a post season team 15 times. it was a dynasty, and one of the best runs in mlb history. john remembers, but most reds fans don't. they remember the machine because it's rammed down their throats by reds media types to sell more tickets. there's nothing wrong with that. i'm only pointing out that there were very good reds teams before and after the mid 70's. regardless, it's a incredible amount of consistency.

conversely, the reds have only had five winning seasons since 1996. the rays have had more winning seasons since 96, and they didn't start play until 98. can that consistent losing be blamed (primarily) on free agency and the ever evolving economics of baseball? was there continuity loss between ownerships? the reds have definitely had a very disparate group of gm's from the 90's to present. different agendas / different processes / different prioritization / different everything. now, it starts again. regardless, it's difficult to find justification, in terms of the historical scope, for such failure over more than two decades from the first professional baseball franchise.
 

JohnU

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No doubting that the team put together after the winter of 1960 was the inspiration for a whole decade of competitive teams that inevitably became the BRM.

Trades that I recall after 1960 were
Roy McMillan to the Braves for Joey Jay and Juan Pizarro (unpopular trade)
Flipping Pizarro to the Sox for Gene Freese (nobody even noticed at the time)
Trading Ed Bailey to the Giants for Don Blasingame and a couple of other guys (very unpopular trade)

There were other mix-and-match deals along the way that had brought in Gordy Coleman from the Indians, (dealt for Johnny Temple, VERY unpopular trade) and bringing back Wally Post. Post had been with the Reds and was earlier traded to the Phils. Oddly, the deal that brought him back to Cincy included a guy named Tony Gonzalez, who Reds fans believed was going to be a superstar. In that respect, that trade wasn't all that popular either, though Post was a great hitter.

The point being on all that was that the popularity of trades is sometimes the least of a team's concern. Those were different times, to be sure, and some Reds had career years to make that season work. Gabe Paul was the GM at the time in a changing environment where expansion was happening.

Not many folks remember that the 61 Reds used 3 catchers, 2 shortstops, and 2 2nd basemen -- defying the logic that you need a consistent middle.

They also had Jim Brosnan, who might have fully defined the "closer" role, though one could say Luis Arroyo and Roy Face might also have done that.

Hutch was a damned genius.

Reds should have/could have won the pennant in 62 and again in 64 ... though it got a little shakier after that they were still a powerful hitting team. Trading Robinson brings me back to that point, I suppose.

(BTW, I had to look up some of this since I am sort of smart but not really smart. The memories are still there, however. I have had many occasions to revisit my all-time favorite team.)
 

chico ruiz

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"….the popularity of trades is sometimes the least of a team's concern." perfectly articulated and exactly right john. without a wholesale revisit of the last 6 years, i would simply add; there should have been some unpopular trades made.

it must have been difficult for sisler, heffner, and bristol to follow in hutchinson's footsteps. in fact, i know it was. my grandfather and father always spoke very highly of hutchinson. not only did he have high baseball intelligence, but was thought of as a very good man as well. quiet old school toughness where respect has to be earned was what i took away from my grandfather's yarns. with all their fallibilities, my grandfather's generation were some tough old birds. coming through the depression and world war, they didn't have much truck for ambiguity. i believe they referred to it as, 'horseshit.' fuckin guys played hard and worked harder. if they thought you should win, then by god, you better win. no wiggle room with those guys. bristol had a particularly hard time because, as i recall, many reds fans thought he had more and better talent than hutchinson but was unable to deliver a pennant.

john's reference to 'the long season' and 'pennant race' are probably must reads for reds fans.
 

JohnU

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I don't know that Bristol had more talent than Hutch did, but I know he had better talent than their record showed. Obviously 67-68, the Cardinals had the best teams in the league. The 1969 pitching staff had 3 guys who had lost at least 20 games once or more in a season -- Al Jackson, Pete Ramos, Jack Fisher. Jackson and Fisher with the horrible Mets teams, Ramos with a horrible Senators-Twins team.
 

Hit-n-Run

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They're three names you'd rather forget. I don't think any of them pitched much after 1969.

That's somewhat indicative of the late 1960's Reds teams, bad pitching. With the exception of 1967, they were one of the worse staffs from 1965-69. Mel Queen, there's another name. Great 1967 season and done.

In 1968, Chico's old moniker, they were the top scoring team and allowed the most runs. Came close in 65 and 69 to accomplishing it as well.

The BRM offense gets all the accolades, but if you look at most of the success from 61-80, the teams with the most success had good pitching.

I agree with the John on the memories. You have to take a peak back to accurately recount what you lived. Sometimes I don't even remember a few of the cup of coffee types that are listed as having been members of the team.
 

JohnU

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Mel Queen, as the story goes, was an outfielder who became a pitcher quite literallyi because they had nobody better. His dad walates a pitcher so Mel had some background and knew how to throw. He was throwing on the sidelines, as I recall the story, and was given a chance to pitch a game. I think it was the Cardinals when he got his first start. Hitter comes up and asks the catcher what Queen could throw. The catcher shrugged and said he had NO idea. Easy first out.

Ramos and Cam Pasqual, who also threw a few innings in 69 with the Reds as his career ended, (yeah, it was a dog pound pitching staff) were both highly respected pitchers during the late 50s with the Senators because both threw 350 innings. Their records were awful and reflected the Solons team. I also tend to think they were Homer Bailey type pitchers who would be .500 pitchers anywhere, or a guy with a 22-19 record.

Washington didn't ever try to trade them (prior to the new form of contract ownership) so far as I can tell. I think they also had a guy named Chuck Stobbs (had time with the Reds) who lost something like 16 games in a row. Yeah, here it is ... 1957

Capture.PNG
 

huskers1217

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I was sad when the Braves traded Doyle Alexander away.

:pound:
 

eburg5000

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Speaking of trades the Sean Casey trade to the Pirates for a pitcher Dave Williams who didn't last a month with the Reds.
I followed the Reds in the 60's, but it wasn't until after the Robinson trade that I started following them closely. I remember reading the box scores every day after that. One of my favorite teams was the 1967 team. Probably because that was the year I 1st went to a Reds game at Crosley field. I can almost still remember the starting every day lineup that year. but not the batting order
Catcher was Johnny Edwards
*1st base Darren Johnson... couldn't recall Johnson
2nd Tommy Helms
SS Leo Cardenas
3rd Tony Perez
LF Pete Rose
*CF Vada Pinson..Of all the players not to remember
RF Tommy Harper

Mel Queen, Gary Nolen, Jim Maloney.. and I remember a relief Pitch named Jerry Arrigo.

A little footnote, Johnny Bench was a Sept callup that year...After looking it up he might have been up a little before Sept. Bench played In 26 games that year. He would almost have to played everyday after he was called up to just be a Sept callup
And that is the extent of all My memories of that year
 

Hit-n-Run

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I was sad also when the Braves traded Doyle Alexander...... the Reds always hammered him pretty good.
 

Hit-n-Run

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Vada Pinson was a good ball player. Probably the best Reds player nobody ever talks about. Over shadowed by Frank Robinson, even in High School. Frank graduated a couple years earlier from McClymonds HS in Oakland.

Ernie Lombardi went to the same HS.
 

JohnU

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Pinson hit .343 in 1961 ... He carried a lot of pressure because he was very fast for the time, hit for good power and played good defense. Some compared him to someday being as good as Mays or Mantle, if that can be believed. 3rd in MVP voting in 61

But there was a lot of pressure from the social (racial) aspect of it too and he didn't complain much. Robinson did, which I think contributed more to his being traded than being an "old 30."

As for the game, eburg, if you can recall the date, or close to it, the box score is on Baseball reference. Just find the year, click on schedule and results and find the box score. Link is here.

REDS RESULTS 1967
 

eburg5000

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Wow! My memory Of that day is pretty vague after I looked at the box scores. Cardenas must have been injured, and Helms played SS, and our very own Chico Ruiz Played 2nd. Mel Queen was supposed to start but Jerry Arrigo started. I put away a lot of beer that day for a 15 year old,and I didn't remember much after the 1st inning
 

JohnU

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Being at Crosley and not drinking a beer was almost a sin, regardless of your age.
 

chico ruiz

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those mid and late 60's reds teams were good. the blossoming of full consciousness produces vivid memories, for me, of that time. to your point h-n-r, and this is interesting; i remember those times better than what i had for lunch yesterday. it's fascinating actually; the degenerative process. the reds just didn't have enough pitching depth to make up for maloney's loss of gas and nolan's injuries. i think reds fans also forget how good nolan was. he missed a lot of starts in 68 & 69, which was particularly devastating to those starting staffs. he caught a lot of grief for it too. it's no accident that nolan's best years were the same years the reds went to the world series. 70, 72, 75, and 76. merrit, culver, arrigo, pappas, cloninger, and carroll were also in the late 60's mix. the reds actually received cloninger, carroll, and woodward for pappas. good memories of summer afternoons watching those teams. i was inundated with reds. my whole family and all my friends were nuts for the reds. if i didn't see or hear the game, i watched jack moran on al schottelkotte at 11. i checked the box score the next morning before breakfast. the paper usually smelled like my dad's shit. the man took some long dumps. i'd be waiting for him to wipe and flush so i could see details of the previous night's games. no shit. i could read a box score, and it's nuances, before i could spell properly. that's why i remember those teams and many more. and, yes john, there was a sort of religious element to it all.

rose got referred to as a hotdog sometimes. compare that to today's showboating and you get the point. i think we all understand. there's a lot of money floating around mlb parks in 2016. players protecting their careers, franchises protecting the players, multi-million $ insurance policies, huge media dollars, $20 beers, endorsements, advertising, memorabilia, etc etc etc. lots of changes, to be sure. not all those changes, but most are money related. to me the most blatant difference is the effort made by today's players compared to the players of that era. it made watching the game, back then, much more engaging. those guys played full out 100% 100% of the time. the feel of the game was edgier. violence could happen. impact plays occurred more often. the ball was hit more often into the field of play.

the effort put forth by those players far surpasses today's output. that's something i haven't forgotten, and i never miss a chance to mention it when the opportunity presents. holy crap. i'm rambling and repeating.
 

JohnU

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Considering that until about 1965 the batting helmet was somewhat optional and some guys just wore a liner (Pinson) inside their caps, one wonders how those guys survived. Throwing inside was not a matter of choice. Frank Robinson crouched over the plate and got hit about 30 times his rookie year.

I recall a game when the Cubs were playing the Reds and Mo Drabowsky was running for the Cubs. He came into 3rd base with his spikes up around Don Hoak's armpit. There was not a doubt about intent. Hoak took the hit and probably missed 3 weeks. I can't recall the exact year (1957 or so) so it was earlier than the Reds teams we are discussing.

But it is worth noting that Johnny Bench, who was considered the catalyst for most great Reds teams, seldom missed a game because of injury after he broke his thumb very early in his career.

Nolan pitched with bone spurs and wasn't given any sympathy. I think Maloney also had a wrecked shoulder but I believe it was an ankle injury that finally ended his career. Maloney would probably be a "closer" if he came up today. Gotta wonder if the same fate might have befallen Nolan Ryan.

But I get it about today's players. With those contracts, franchises effectively market a player to the fans. If he gets hurt, it's tough. Let alone the risk of PEDs involvement or recently, domestic abuse, I think it's harder to build a roster now. There's less talent to be had and a measure of success is much different. In the old days, the RBI was good enough. Now the "experts" puke all over that statistic.

Can't say for sure what the metrics conclude, but in a tough spot, I will put Tony Perez at the plate.
 
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