Crickets.....

[MSUCTM96]

Since my Uncle has been a sports booster at UM for 40+ years I must comment. All I have heard since Hoke arrived at Michigan is recruiting and overall improvement.

 

[jalopy]

Since my Uncle has been a sports booster at UM for 40+ years I must comment. All I have heard since Hoke arrived at Michigan is recruiting and overall improvement.

You haven't hear that from anyone that pays close attention to the program. The '11 team wasn't nearly as good as its' record but team fundamentals have deteriorated annually since Hoke arrived. In all likelihood his staff will be revamped putting him on the proverbial hot seat next year with DB spending the year searching for a new direction. The only complication is Hoke's success on the recruiting trail. Too bad it hasn't translated to success on the field. Either his evaluation is suspect or development is lacking.

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

You haven't hear that from anyone that pays close attention to the program. The '11 team wasn't nearly as good as its' record but team fundamentals have deteriorated annually since Hoke arrived. In all likelihood his staff will be revamped putting him on the proverbial hot seat next year with DB spending the year searching for a new direction. The only complication is Hoke's success on the recruiting trail. Too bad it hasn't translated to success on the field. Either his evaluation is suspect or development is lacking.

Mailbag: Plenty Of Sad Football What Now Stuff, Yost Back In The Day | mgoblog

I don't know what you are talking about, because Brian from MGoBlog disagrees, and he usually is very fair.

Are people developing? Individuals, surely. Clark is coming along this year; Beyer has developed; I like both ILBs; Wilson and Taylor are moving forward. Gallon's great, and Funchess is now a weapon even if he can't block. The DL has taken a step back but I'm liking Willie Henry a lot.
Some units are not. Michigan hasn't developed a tailback since… Chris Perry? (Mike Hart came fully-formed out of high school.) Fred Jackson's talent evaluation has been a running joke for years now and it gets less and less funny every year; Michigan has no one who can pick up a blitz and is getting zero from two touted freshmen. Thomas Rawls is a ghost even after Drake Johnson's ACL tear.
The offensive line is hard to judge because of the recruiting crater but has been handled awfully—IMO Michigan is better off if they just stick with Glasgow-Miller-Kalis across the front and hope, and every snap on which a guy flips to an unfamiliar position in practice is a waste of time. The tight ends have almost gone backwards in terms of their blocking and Michigan insisted on using them extensively for half the season; AJ Williams's suspension for the MSU game is like seeing Robbie Findley pick up two yellows in the World Cup. Special teams have also been a consistent disaster from dinosaur punts to erratic punters to Michigan's horrible return units.
If Michigan does end up in a spot where a shakeup is required—emphasis on required, as that's the only way someone's getting forced out—the heat would fall mostly on Funk, Jackson, and Ferrigno. And Borges, who in addition to the we're-stretch-we're-power-we're nothing executive decisions that have exacerbated the line issues has fielded a turnover-mad QB for the third straight year.

This team, for all it's struggles is leagues better than any Rich Rod fielded. Hoke found a dumpster fire of a program and is doing what he can with the cards he's been delt. And before you go on about that 11-2 Sugar Bowl team, remember, that was primarily due to the seniors...........the last Carr recruiting class. Between them and Hoke's first full in 2012, there's a 3 year void of depth and experience he needs to fill, and that take time. Patience is a virtue my friend. If we don't see results next year, then you have a point, but until then, the jury is still out on Hoke. Borges on the other hand is on a much shorter leash.

 

[jalopy]

The article makes salient points but the contention that this staff is developing players in an acceptable manner is debatable. I'm looking more at the offensive side of the ball because that is the area affected most by the philosophy changes the program went through. The position change that DG went through was a disaster. DG has not progressed after 1 year as the starter and perhaps has regressed. RB (although freshmen) is a position with zero immediate future. Green is on the verge of being labeled a bust and rumors are swirling about Smith leaving the program. The focus on big and tall WR's has left the team void of speed regardless of whether one of the 6'5"+ wideouts surprises. The one position Hoke has concentrated most on is a disaster with our best two players (RR recruits) leaving for the NFL next year.

I'm not going to get into the Carr v RR v Hoke debate because the program handled the whole thing in such a childish way it is laughable. To a person, everyone I have talked to that understands what happened refuses to place blame on RR. That goes all the way to the top.

My original point is that by "restructuring" the staff, it will buy hoke more time with John Q Public. That doesn't work. Hoke is well liked but little respected. The simple fact is the program is rudderless. The fear that we would become the next ND has, in fact, become reality. Michigan Football has become a program that is no longer at the forefront of college football and is bordering on irrelevant.

I'm not saying fire Hoke now. I am saying that he needs to be put on notice and Brandon needs to spend the next year putting out feelers and determining if a better option is available.

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

The article makes salient points but the contention that this staff is developing players in an acceptable manner is debatable. I'm looking more at the offensive side of the ball because that is the area affected most by the philosophy changes the program went through. The position change that DG went through was a disaster. DG has not progressed after 1 year as the starter and perhaps has regressed. RB (although freshmen) is a position with zero immediate future. Green is on the verge of being labeled a bust and rumors are swirling about Smith leaving the program. The focus on big and tall WR's has left the team void of speed regardless of whether one of the 6'5"+ wideouts surprises. The one position Hoke has concentrated most on is a disaster with our best two players (RR recruits) leaving for the NFL next year.

I'm not going to get into the Carr v RR v Hoke debate because the program handled the whole thing in such a childish way it is laughable. To a person, everyone I have talked to that understands what happened refuses to place blame on RR. That goes all the way to the top.

My original point is that by "restructuring" the staff, it will buy hoke more time with John Q Public. That doesn't work. Hoke is well liked but little respected. The simple fact is the program is rudderless. The fear that we would become the next ND has, in fact, become reality. Michigan Football has become a program that is no longer at the forefront of college football and is bordering on irrelevant.

I'm not saying fire Hoke now. I am saying that he needs to be put on notice and Brandon needs to spend the next year putting out feelers and determining if a better option is available.

I think you are being overly dramatic when you say the program is "rudderless," because they implies they don't know where they are going and what they want to be. Quite to the contray, they know exactly what they want to be, a smash-mouth physical program. The problem is they don't have all the pieces in place to do that yet, and that is something they are doing a heck of job getting those pieces. But again, that takes time.

As for slipping into irrelevancy, again, aren't you being a bit dramatic? Before they hired Saban, Alabama was doing about as good as Michigan has done under Hoke, did they slip into irrelevancy? Same with USC in the 90's. I mean heck, despite all it's troubles even Notre Dame is still very much a player college football world.

Here's the problem with putting out feelers to soon, you want as a head coach for the AD to have your back, and that means through some hard times. I mean, what coach wants to come to a job where if he is not given an adequate chance is thrown out the door because he didn't win a national title in two-years, no matter what situation he walks into? So right now Brandon publicly is doing what he should, back Hoke. Now privately he can put some pressure, maybe have him talk to Beilien, who had his own struggles in his third season and made the necessary corrections. For example, we talk about the development (or lack thereof) of Gardner, and Denard, as QB's. So the answer there might be to hire a freaking QB coach! That way Borges can focus on the big picture of the offense, and let the QB coach work one-on-one with Gardner/Morris/et al (do you think we can get Brady to retire and come home?).

 

[jalopy]

I think you are being overly dramatic when you say the program is "rudderless," because they implies they don't know where they are going and what they want to be. Quite to the contray, they know exactly what they want to be, a smash-mouth physical program. The problem is they don't have all the pieces in place to do that yet, and that is something they are doing a heck of job getting those pieces. But again, that takes time.

No, it implies they are incapable of steering the ship in the direction they want. I am assuming you are referring to Hoke's prowess on the recruiting trail. You want to know how many years in a row ND's recruiting was ranked in the top 15 while the program has been stuck in mediocrity for almost 30 years.

As for slipping into irrelevancy, again, aren't you being a bit dramatic? Before they hired Saban, Alabama was doing about as good as Michigan has done under Hoke, did they slip into irrelevancy? Same with USC in the 90's. I mean heck, despite all it's troubles even Notre Dame is still very much a player college football world.

ND is relevant in the FINANCIAL world of football, not the game played on the field. You bring up 'Bama. They were dead and they did what it took to become relevant ($$$$$$). USC is a different animal with intangibles Michigan can never touch.

Here's the problem with putting out feelers to soon, you want as a head coach for the AD to have your back, and that means through some hard times. I mean, what coach wants to come to a job where if he is not given an adequate chance is thrown out the door because he didn't win a national title in two-years, no matter what situation he walks into? So right now Brandon publicly is doing what he should, back Hoke. Now privately he can put some pressure, maybe have him talk to Beilien, who had his own struggles in his third season and made the necessary corrections. For example, we talk about the development (or lack thereof) of Gardner, and Denard, as QB's. So the answer there might be to hire a freaking QB coach! That way Borges can focus on the big picture of the offense, and let the QB coach work one-on-one with Gardner/Morris/et al (do you think we can get Brady to retire and come home?).

No, I want my coach to know that he will be held accountable, and that doesn't mean public boasts of responsibility. I want a coach that does what it takes to win within the rules. Period. I want Hoke to know his ass is on the hot seat and I don't care who knows it. If I were Brandon I would scream to the football world that I will do everything possible to get Michigan back on top.

The only gard(e)ner Borges needs to be concerned with is in his retirement home. I have a better chance of being OC than he does next year.

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

No, it implies they are incapable of steering the ship in the direction they want. I am assuming you are referring to Hoke's prowess on the recruiting trail. You want to know how many years in a row ND's recruiting was ranked in the top 15 while the program has been stuck in mediocrity for almost 30 years.

Yes, good recruiting in of itself will not necessarily lead to championships. But good recruiting is necessary for championships. To show this, I did a quick bit of research, matching up final rankings to the recruiting class rankings and there is a clear trend line, the higher the ranking, the higher the class. In fact, no national championship team has had a class ranked any lower than 22nd. And note, when I say "a class," I mean "a" class. Because the couple of times there is a low ranked class, it is surrounded by other top 10 classes.

ND is relevant in the FINANCIAL world of football, not the game played on the field. You bring up 'Bama. They were dead and they did what it took to become relevant ($$$$$$). USC is a different animal with intangibles Michigan can never touch.

Really? Didn't they just play in a national title game, based pretty much on brand name alone? And aren't they always in the conversation when in comes to conference alignment? And don't they still draw big name coaches and big name recruits?

Fact is they are still far more relevant than most AQ schools like a Arizona, a Illinois, a Texas Tech who find themselves in the middle to lower ends of their conferences.

And are you saying Michigan, one of the wealthiest athletic departments in the country, can't bring money to bare? If Brandon has proved anything, he's willing to open the wallet. I mean they did pull Greg Mattison from NFL money.

What intangibles are you talking about when comes to USC are you talking about? History? Check. Academics? Check. Big stage/exposure? Check. About they only thing USC has that Michigan doesn't is good whether most of the year, and if you think that is high on a recruits priority list when deciding on schools, then I got some prime ocean-front property in Arizona to sell you.

No, I want my coach to know that he will be held accountable, and that doesn't mean public boasts of responsibility. I want a coach that does what it takes to win within the rules. Period. I want Hoke to know his ass is on the hot seat and I don't care who knows it. If I were Brandon I would scream to the football world that I will do everything possible to get Michigan back on top.

The only gard(e)ner Borges needs to be concerned with is in his retirement home. I have a better chance of being OC than he does next year.

And Hoke isn't holding himself accountable? Didn't he just take the blame for the last lose? Hoke does what want to win, whatever it takes within the rules, really, what coach doesn't? Know, he might be a bit stubborn on "what it takes," but doesn't mean he lacks conviction.

And what if what Brandon needs to do to get Michigan back on top is to give the right guy the time to do it? The last thing you want to do is get antsy and fire the coach who will get you there because he had a bad season. That's what he did with John Beilein, after take Michigan back to the Big Dance for the first time in decades, they team took a step back. If he had flinched then, if he had sent Beilein the wrong signals that sent him scurring to a more stable job Michigan is not in the Final Four last year.

 

[jalopy]

not going to respond simply because you are making the mistake of arguing backward. You make up theories to support and unsubstantiated idea. It's like building a high rise in the sand.....it crumbles.

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

not going to respond simply because you are making the mistake of arguing backward. You make up theories to support and unsubstantiated idea. It's like building a high rise in the sand.....it crumbles.

Or in other words, you admit defeat. In that case, I accept your surrender.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

This team is terrible. I'm not sure how you can say that this team is any better than RR's 3rd year? We're 1 yard away from being a 5-4 team with losses to Akron, MSU, PSU and Nebraska. The only thing that's changed is that our defense is better than our offense where as under RR our offense was better than our defense; which makes sense because RR's background was offense and Hoke's background was defense.

 

[jalopy]

Or in other words, you admit defeat. In that case, I accept your surrender.

Sure, you win......and SoCal doesn't have an advantage on Michigan. Incredible!

 

[themuzzer]

Sure, you win......and SoCal doesn't have an advantage on Michigan. Incredible!

Maybe, Just Maybe and I'm just spit balling here, Pete Carroll had something to do with USC success. I'm not a big fan of Pete but since he left USC it doesn't look good, Pete went to Seattle and WOW some how that team is pretty darn good.

That must sting just a little.

 

[jalopy]

This team is terrible. I'm not sure how you can say that this team is any better than RR's 3rd year? We're 1 yard away from being a 5-4 team with losses to Akron, MSU, PSU and Nebraska. The only thing that's changed is that our defense is better than our offense where as under RR our offense was better than our defense; which makes sense because RR's background was offense and Hoke's background was defense.

I think folks really like Hoke (who doesn't) and want him to succeed. The apparent recruiting success is the carrot that keeps people believing it is getting better and so common sense is thrown out the window. The '11 season was an illusion. We all know that team wasn't nearly as good as their record. I don't see how this team can win another game. @Iowa seems like the only way to get back in the win column but I wouldn't take that bet.

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

Sure, you win......and SoCal doesn't have an advantage on Michigan. Incredible!

So if they have an advantage, name it! It's that simple. But in basically all the factors that really count, Michigan is just as good (if not better) than USC. Again, they only real thing they can offer that Michigan can't is weather. And frankly most recruits don't care about the weather.

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

I think folks really like Hoke (who doesn't) and want him to succeed. The apparent recruiting success is the carrot that keeps people believing it is getting better and so common sense is thrown out the window. The '11 season was an illusion. We all know that team wasn't nearly as good as their record. I don't see how this team can win another game. @Iowa seems like the only way to get back in the win column but I wouldn't take that bet.

Again, you bring up recruiting as if it is something that will have immediate impact. Sure, one or two young players (ala Manziel or Winston) can come in and contribute, but they almost always have a good supporting cast around them. Just like Chad Henne and Braylon Edwards. But when you have that many underclassmen in that many key positions, there are going to be inconsistencies, not matter how many stars they have. So yes the recruiting buys him time because he was able to bring in such great raw material. Now we have to give him time to see what he does with it, which it is still too early to tell.

 

[jalopy]

So yes the recruiting buys him time because he was able to bring in such great raw material. Now we have to give him time to see what he does with it, which it is still too early to tell.

Ummmm.....his first class will be juniors and seniors next year. Any more time and they will be in the unemployment line.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

I think folks really like Hoke (who doesn't) and want him to succeed. The apparent recruiting success is the carrot that keeps people believing it is getting better and so common sense is thrown out the window. The '11 season was an illusion. We all know that team wasn't nearly as good as their record. I don't see how this team can win another game. @Iowa seems like the only way to get back in the win column but I wouldn't take that bet.

I think the team is capable of winning another game but nothing this year has been impressive.

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

Ummmm.....his first class will be juniors and seniors next year. Any more time and they will be in the unemployment line.

And that's all I'm saying, let's see what he does in the developing his first full class, which is the class of 2012 btw, not 2011. Because while Hoke accepted the letters, it was Rich Rod who got the commitments.

People are too quick to jump the gun and draw hard conclusions. Yes, at this point it is fair to start asking questions, but no more than that.

 

[jalopy]

And that's all I'm saying, let's see what he does in the developing his first full class, which is the class of 2012 btw, not 2011. Because while Hoke accepted the letters, it was Rich Rod who got the commitments.

People are too quick to jump the gun and draw hard conclusions. Yes, at this point it is fair to start asking questions, but no more than that.

.....and of course there are redhirts and medical redshirts so it is possible that Hoke's "real" first class will still be on the field in '17. Let's wait until then to judge him. Of course, this (lack of) logic only applies to the current staff.

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

.....and of course there are redhirts and medical redshirts so it is possible that Hoke's "real" first class will still be on the field in '17. Let's wait until then to judge him. Of course, this (lack of) logic only applies to the current staff.

You're right, if a coach can't win a national championship with a bunch of 18 year old kids, then he should be fired on the spot! :rollseyes: