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Buster Olney - The Stupidity of Retaliation.

Zooky

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Olney: The stupidity of retaliation

A very logical and informative read.
I thought this on Earl Weaver and the O's was very enlightening.

Orioles Manager Earl Weaver discouraged his pitchers -- OK, knowing Earl, he probably barked at them with biting sarcasm -- with logic. If you retaliate, he told them, one of our guys might wind up getting hurt, and our guys are better than their guys. As a result, Orioles pitchers hit relatively few batters.

Here are the Orioles' American League Rankings in HBPs in Weaver’s first 11 years as manager:

1969 Second fewest

1970 Fewest

1971 Fewest

1972 Fewest

1973 Fewest

1974 Tied for fewest

1975 Fewest (the Orioles hit just 12 batters)

1976 Second fewest

1977 Seventh

1978 Fewest

1979 Tied for fewest

Sarah Langs of ESPN Research dug this out: In Weaver’s first 14 years as the Orioles’ manager, Baltimore pitchers hit by far the fewest hitters of any staff in the AL (the expansion Jays and Mariners, who played their first seasons in 1977, are not included on this list).

1. Angels 537

2. White Sox 502

3. Rangers 492

4. Red Sox 478

5. Tigers 475

6. Indians 458

7. Brewers 455

8. Twins 437

9. Athletics 435

10. Royals 412

11. Yankees 316

12. Orioles 274

And Baltimore was pretty good in this time, playing in the World Series four times. It won more games than any team in those 14 years, with a 1,306-885 record, a winning percentage of .596. The Reds were second, at .571 (1,258-946).

This is not to suggest the Orioles won because Weaver was a conscientious objector in the American League’s HBP wars. But what is evident is Baltimore was not hurt because the pitchers wouldn’t participate, and it is possible Weaver’s strategy helped to keep Hall of Famers like Brooks Robinson, Frank Robinson, Cal Ripken and Jim Palmer on the field. The fact that the Orioles were not engaged in the retaliation meant there were almost certainly fewer situations in which some pitcher purposefully targeted a Baltimore hitter. (Although Orioles batters were hit their fair share in Weaver’s tenure: 469 times, or fifth most.)
 

Zooky

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By the way, after Teheran hit Bautista in the thigh, it all went downhill for him. Lasted only 3 innings and the Jays romped them.
 

Chewbaccer

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By the way, after Teheran hit Bautista in the thigh, it all went downhill for him. Lasted only 3 innings and the Jays romped them.

After already winning the first 3 games of the series.

Bautista should be thrown at in every game. He knew it was coming, and that had little bearing on why the Braves lost the series finale.
 

molsaniceman

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After already winning the first 3 games of the series.

Bautista should be thrown at in every game. He knew it was coming, and that had little bearing on why the Braves lost the series finale.
the fact that it took him 2 pitches to hit him probably had more to do with it:suds:
 

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the fact that it took him 2 pitches to hit him probably had more to do with it:suds:

Don't know what it is, but Teheran has sucked at home in every start this season. He's been borderline dominant on the road. Really, I thought the scheduling worked out great since he wouldn't have to face Bryce Harper(who has owned Teheran more than any hitter has ever owned another pitcher that I can recall) this weekend, but I guess it didn't make a difference.

Last night was the most unexpected win of the season. Had already conceded the Washington series as a sweep.
 

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I was born in 1981. And I know the Os rotation from the 70's.


Not because of any reason other than it's one of the best ever. (That is surprising the difference in HBP numbers. Philosophy plus skill kept a lot of runners off the base paths.)
 

broncosmitty

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I tried to read Busters piece, but I can't. Can't stand that fat little nerd.


Got to defensive positioning and that was it.
 

redseat

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Don't know what it is, but Teheran has sucked at home in every start this season. He's been borderline dominant on the road. Really, I thought the scheduling worked out great since he wouldn't have to face Bryce Harper(who has owned Teheran more than any hitter has ever owned another pitcher that I can recall) this weekend, but I guess it didn't make a difference.

Last night was the most unexpected win of the season. Had already conceded the Washington series as a sweep.

I am at the point where I should just start him while he is away. Because he has been killing me
 

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I am at the point where I should just start him while he is away. Because he has been killing me

Probably a good call. It's bizarre. Not sure if I've ever seen anything like it. I've seen pitchers be a lot better home than on the road, but I don't know if I've ever seen a pitcher great on the road and absolutely terrible at home.

I could understand if he were just giving up more solo shots being a fly ball pitcher and moving to a much more hitter friendly home park than you're used to, but it's the command. Dude can't find the strikezone at home, and then he gives up a 3 run bomb.
 

redseat

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Probably a good call. It's bizarre. Not sure if I've ever seen anything like it. I've seen pitchers be a lot better home than on the road, but I don't know if I've ever seen a pitcher great on the road and absolutely terrible at home.

I could understand if he were just giving up more solo shots being a fly ball pitcher and moving to a much more hitter friendly home park than you're used to, but it's the command. Dude can't find the strikezone at home, and then he gives up a 3 run bomb.

He frustrating as well that's for sure... He's killed me for a while now. Granted he hasn't lost my week completely but he certainly hasn't helped at all.
 

Voltaire26

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I think you always have to have the threat of retaliation if another team intentionally throws are your guys. Which means you have to play a little chin music now and again. However, I do agree that throwing at someone because someone else hit a home run off you is silly, but you may have to back them off the plate.
 

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@jonahkeri 23m23 minutes ago

NBA: [decades of celebrating any way they like]
NFL: [fine, us too]
MLB: [batter takes 0.001 seconds too long to round bases, gets macheted]
 

Eugene Baker III

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Olney: The stupidity of retaliation

A very logical and informative read.
I thought this on Earl Weaver and the O's was very enlightening.

Orioles Manager Earl Weaver discouraged his pitchers -- OK, knowing Earl, he probably barked at them with biting sarcasm -- with logic. If you retaliate, he told them, one of our guys might wind up getting hurt, and our guys are better than their guys. As a result, Orioles pitchers hit relatively few batters.

Here are the Orioles' American League Rankings in HBPs in Weaver’s first 11 years as manager:

1969 Second fewest

1970 Fewest

1971 Fewest

1972 Fewest

1973 Fewest

1974 Tied for fewest

1975 Fewest (the Orioles hit just 12 batters)

1976 Second fewest

1977 Seventh

1978 Fewest

1979 Tied for fewest

Sarah Langs of ESPN Research dug this out: In Weaver’s first 14 years as the Orioles’ manager, Baltimore pitchers hit by far the fewest hitters of any staff in the AL (the expansion Jays and Mariners, who played their first seasons in 1977, are not included on this list).

1. Angels 537

2. White Sox 502

3. Rangers 492

4. Red Sox 478

5. Tigers 475

6. Indians 458

7. Brewers 455

8. Twins 437

9. Athletics 435

10. Royals 412

11. Yankees 316

12. Orioles 274

And Baltimore was pretty good in this time, playing in the World Series four times. It won more games than any team in those 14 years, with a 1,306-885 record, a winning percentage of .596. The Reds were second, at .571 (1,258-946).

This is not to suggest the Orioles won because Weaver was a conscientious objector in the American League’s HBP wars. But what is evident is Baltimore was not hurt because the pitchers wouldn’t participate, and it is possible Weaver’s strategy helped to keep Hall of Famers like Brooks Robinson, Frank Robinson, Cal Ripken and Jim Palmer on the field. The fact that the Orioles were not engaged in the retaliation meant there were almost certainly fewer situations in which some pitcher purposefully targeted a Baltimore hitter. (Although Orioles batters were hit their fair share in Weaver’s tenure: 469 times, or fifth most.)
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