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2018 Pirates

Discussion in 'Pittsburgh Pirates' started by thedddd, Nov 27, 2017.

  1. thedddd

    thedddd Well-Known Member

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  2. navamind

    navamind Well-Known Member

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  3. thedddd

    thedddd Well-Known Member

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    With the OF projects not as good as once touted and the fact Cole is probably gone this will be yet another season wasted.
     
  4. thedddd

    thedddd Well-Known Member

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  5. steelparrot

    steelparrot rawr

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    Happy New Year!


    Another day another Cole trade rumor, I guess he is gone soon.
     
  6. Ewa PGH Fan

    Ewa PGH Fan Glade City, PA

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    Naw, they'll mess this up somehow.
     
  7. thedddd

    thedddd Well-Known Member

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  8. thedddd

    thedddd Well-Known Member

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    Awful deal.....Really what is the point this season.
    Really if for the most part most people are like:
     
  9. psaboy

    psaboy Well-Known Member

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    Well, they send Cole to Astro's and get little in return.
     
  10. Darkstone42

    Darkstone42 Oh.

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    I actually like Colin Moran quite a bit. If the power is real, he's basically Travis Shaw, and Travis Shaw was a 3.4 fWAR player last season. But we'll have Moran for like 5 years.

    Musgrove had very similar numbers to Cole last season, and was once a top-100 prospect after putting up outstanding numbers every year in the minors. He may prove to be better served in the bullpen, where he dominated last season, but either way, he's a talented pitcher who can strike some guys out and doesn't walk many, and is an above-average contact manager.

    Feliz is a high-risk asset, but his upside is as a right-handed Rivero. They have very similar profiles, and very similar shortcomings. Ray got Felipe to overcome his shortcomings, perhaps the same approach will work with Feliz.

    Martin isn't highly regarded by scouts, but the numbers he's put up as a minor leaguer have been very impressive. He's said to have average at best power, but he keeps hitting dingers. If he keeps doing that, he'll force his way into legitimate prospect status.

    There might not be superstars in the deal, but honestly, it might make the team better as soon as this season, and will certainly make them better in 2019 and beyond.
     
  11. steelparrot

    steelparrot rawr

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  12. Darkstone42

    Darkstone42 Oh.

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    If the power is real, Moran should be closer to the B+ side, because he's always been able to hit. As I said, he's likely to put up several 2017 Travis Shaw type seasons, .300/.350/.500, if the power translates. And since he's always hit the ball hard, I'm confident the power is real after adjusting his swing to add more loft.

    And if he's getting into his power, his selective eye could boost that OBP, too.

    He also didn't sacrifice any line drives to turn grounders into fly balls, so he could run a couple high BABIP seasons to post upwards of 5 WAR.

    Moran's a really solid get. I think his floor is average starter, but there's more upside here than he's given credit for.

    I'm getting interested in Martin, though, too. He's rated so low because scouts don't think he has enough power. But he keeps hitting for more power than the scouts predict. He could be a diamond in the rough if he keeps doing that.
     
  13. steelparrot

    steelparrot rawr

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  14. steelparrot

    steelparrot rawr

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    I hope you are right about Moran, I guess we wont have to wait long.

    A tweener type OF fits in our LF, so that is one good thing about our huge LF.
     
  15. Darkstone42

    Darkstone42 Oh.

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    That's true; I hadn't even thought about that. I hope the power he's added the past couple seasons is something he can sustain, because if he keeps it up, he'll suddenly turn into a pretty exciting prospect. Honestly, he'd look an awful lot like McCutchen, who stayed in CF despite being himself a tweener type, though less good because he doesn't have Cutch's discerning eye. Perhaps a Marte type, but with more pop and worse defense?
     
  16. Darkstone42

    Darkstone42 Oh.

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    McCutchen traded to the Giants. Kyle Crick reportedly coming back in the deal, but I don't know who else. No Shaw, Beede, or Ramos, who were the players I'd hoped they'd land, but I'm still holding out hope for Aramis Garcia, a catcher in AA who broke out offensively last season. Good pop, good eye, higher strikeouts than you'd like, and no idea on his glove.
     
  17. steelparrot

    steelparrot rawr

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    MLB.com 2017 Prospect Watch

    Reynolds our number 4 and Moran number 5 on mlb.coms list, I guess those guys dont mess around lolz.

    The Rivero extention looks like a great move unless he gets hurt.


    Do we spend the cash we saved? or just tank it completely.... Idk, time will tell, looks like there maybe some 1yr contract bargins in a month or so.
     
  18. Darkstone42

    Darkstone42 Oh.

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    Reynolds that high, huh? Wow. I like him, but he's pre-breakout and his tools are solid but unspectacular. I think an argument could be made for him in the top 10, but I like Moran, Hayes, Tucker, and Newman better than him for sure, as well as our top three, of course. Though, MLB.com also has Will Craig in the top 10, so I'm not sure I trust them. He's a fine player, but he's a low-power first baseman. I don't see how you put him ahead of Kramer, Hearn, Mitchell, Uselton, Jennings, Cruz, or Escobar, who all have much higher ceilings.

    Jason Martin at 18, and Kyle Crick at 25, too, for what it's worth.
     
  19. thedddd

    thedddd Well-Known Member

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    My concern with Moran, is that power real? He hit mainly in the PCL which is a notorious hitters league. Also with Bell at 1B will this push Hayes to be a trade chip?
    Martin seems like the sleeper in the bunch. If he can figure out CF he might be a good at least 4th OF (if Meadows is the star he should have been)
    Feliz will be good bullpen help that can supplant Rivero if he falters. I think stated earlier they are similar and will help in the 7th/8th inning.
    Musgrove is being projected for the Bullpen. I would rather him stay a starter until Glasnow, Keller or Kingham can supplant him. Best case scenario they all pan out as starter and they have 4/5 good starters.

    Granted I am not thrilled of the return for Cole but they seemed to fill needs with 3B, OF, Bullpen and a starter.

    As for the McCutchen deal, as much as I hate to seem him leave, they got more that I thought they would.
    Reynolds - who can be another good OF. I am thinking with Meadows, Martin and now Reynolds this is insurance if/when Marte or Polanco get traded.
    Crick - I know nothing about him but looks to be another piece in the bullpen. With Rivero, Crick and Feliz lets hope their bullpen this year helps their starters out.
     
  20. Darkstone42

    Darkstone42 Oh.

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    Crick was a very highly regarded prospect until his control started to hurt him in the upper levels. He's got the same strengths and weaknesses as Feliz. Big strikeouts, but little command. A classic Searage project.

    I like Reynolds and Martin both for the same reason. Their scouted tools are mostly solid but unspectacular across the board, but both produce as if they have great tools consistently. Which begs the question, did the scouts just miss with them? Reynolds in particular is said to be a guy who does everything well, but nothing great. Though, if his hitting keeps going as it has recently, perhaps he does in fact have a great hit tool after all.

    Moran's power is as likely real as one can claim given the limited information. His home ballpark was the most neutral in the PCL, and he had gone a previous season in the same league without the power. The power also coincided with a swing change geared toward generating more fly balls, and he did in fact hit dramatically more fly balls. There's a question as to how quickly he'll adjust to the Majors, whether he can keep that above-average strikeout avoidance, for example, and center the ball up with the same frequency, but I think it's a safe bet he'll at least produce some power. Maybe not his .235 ISO of last year, but a number around .180 seems likely. And given that he's always hit for average and has a decent eye, a .180 ISO would yield a line like .280/.340/.460, which would be very solid production for a rookie 3B. Assuming average defense and bad baserunning, it's probably a 3+ fWAR season. And there's upside there, since he mostly hit around or above .300 in the minors. If he brings all the power with him (the NL central is pretty easy on left-handed power hitters, after all, thanks to PNC's short porch in right, two bandboxes in Milwaukee and Cincinnati, and at worst net neutral power parks in Chicago and St. Louis), he's somewhere between Travis Shaw and Justin Turner right away.

    The complaint about Moran is that he's "high floor," as if that necessarily means "low ceiling." I don't see that as the case. He's a bit post-hype, but he was a very well-regarded prospect in the draft because of a top-notch hit tool, and aside from a disastrous 2016, that hit tool has shown up consistently in the minors. And because of that hit tool, he's probably a safe bet as an average regular 3B. But there's so much upside suddenly because of the power. If it translates, and the hit tool remains, he could be a perennial 4-5 fWAR player, and an occasional All-Star. And if the 'Stros didn't already have Bregman and Guriel, I think the Pirates would have had enormous difficulty prying Moran away from them for that reason exactly. That's a pretty good ceiling.
     
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