HALL OF FAME '17

Droopdog51 said:

Show me any proof Bagwell juiced?

No failed test or mention in the Mitchell Report. Where is any real proof. Not just he was muscular or speculation.

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The Hall of Fame voters' war on steroids is crumbling

Is as close as I can find for proof. Both are highly suspected as having used. But neither one has failed a known test.

My take on the voting this year.

Raines has deserved it, and the main distraction from him is he was unlucky enough to play at the same time as Rickey Henderson.

Jeff Bagwell was a force for years in the middle of the Astros lineup and while not being amongst the top .1% of baseball history he is amongst the top 1% which is enough IMO to be in.

Ivan Rodriguez. At one time was considered a better defensive catcher then Bench by many. A 21year career for a catcher with 2800+ hits and 300+ homers and almost a career BA of .300 along with his defensive skills at a defensive position is deserving of the HOF.

Trevor Hoffman I was surprised to see this much love given to a pure closer. I think this vote is showing the way baseball has changed and the ways it is viewed now.

Jorge Posada I believe he is Hill of Very Good, but I was surprised by how low his vote total was.

Steroids and the Hall. I think we are seeing the writers change their mind on steroids and saying other than the big three (A Rod, Bonds, Clemens) we are going to let this guy's in. The big three IMO are going to continue to be on the outs with enough voters that I believe it will come down to the Veterans Committee for them.

David Ortiz my two biggest arguments as to why he wouldn't make it were: Steroids and with my last paragraph I believe that is out the window. DH if Edgar and Harold Baines who were the two best pure DHs have not made it, no DH will ever make it.Well Edgar is starting to get the support he deserves. Baines was not a HOF just top two at his position. The more Edgar creeps closer to the 75% the better I see Ortiz's chances.

MilkSpiller22 said:

Helton is an interesting case... But I am sure the Colorado affect will ruin him...

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I am not sure a Rockie hitter will ever get in. The stank is just too strong.

This is next year's ballot:

2018 Potential Hall of Fame Ballot | Baseball-Reference.com

Jones and Thome may make it in 1st ballot. As to returning guys I think Hoffman makes it in. Got to think Bonds and Clemens will make it within the next 2-3 years as well.

tducey said:

This is next year's ballot:

2018 Potential Hall of Fame Ballot | Baseball-Reference.com

Jones and Thome may make it in 1st ballot. As to returning guys I think Hoffman makes it in. Got to think Bonds and Clemens will make it within the next 2-3 years as well.

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Looking further down that list Omar Vizquel should get some votes for his defense. Matsui should stick around for 10 years at 30 or 40%, but never really make a run. Carl Pavano got something and eye while seeing his name written.

obxyankeefan said:

The Hall of Fame voters' war on steroids is crumbling

Is as close as I can find for proof. Both are highly suspected as having used. But neither one has failed a known test.

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There is no proof. He hasn't been linked to any clinic, no one has come out and named him as a juicer, no failed test, nothing but he was muscular and therefore he had to be. I know I'm a homer, but if there isn't any real evidence then I don't see how he keeps being labeled as though he was.

MilkSpiller22 said:

before someone says anything my SB milestone is a little too low... Cant have vince coleman making the HOF...LOL


But a milestone should reflect the times though, shouldn't it??

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Well if we're talking milestones that should guarantee the HOF, which I guess we were, then I agree. Personally I don't think any milestone should guarantee anything. I don't think Sosa is a HOFer.

soxfan1468927 said:

Well if we're talking milestones that should guarantee the HOF, which I guess we were, then I agree. Personally I don't think any milestone should guarantee anything. I don't think Sosa is a HOFer.

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Vlad IMO is interesting... I had him on my list, but I wont be upset if he never makes it.... What does interest me, is how vlad got the votes and Sheffield didn't... I would almost call Sheffield the better overall player...

MilkSpiller22 said:

Vlad IMO is interesting... I had him on my list, but I wont be upset if he never makes it.... What does interest me, is how vlad got the votes and Sheffield didn't... I would almost call Sheffield the better overall player...

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I think Vlad and Sheffield are close. I don't think there is any mystery as to why Vlad receives more votes than Sheffield, the biggest reason is steroids.

But also, Vlad was seen as a fun-loving guy, he won an MVP and received MVP votes in 12 seasons (4 top 4 finishes), career BA of .318, had the highlight reel arm strength, and was nearly a 40/40 guy. Also, I think the voters have a problem with Sheffield never being a team for more than 6 years.

Vlad will make it, but I really don't get the love. I think he's very borderline and I really don't see how he's better than the likes of Larry Walker/Manny Ramirez/Jim Edmonds.

Good to see Edgar getting some love. Hopefully he'll make it soon. Don't understand how one can vote for Hoffman, a guy that pitches 70 innings a year, and not vote for a guy with 600+ plate appearances a year. Just incredibly stupid logic.

Also, I love that Tek and Posada lasted the same length on the ballot. That being said, while I don't think Posada's worthy of induction, I do think he should have lasted longer and merits some discussion. He was certainly one of the best hitters at his position.

lulz

Curt Schilling got in a Twitter fight with fake Sidney Ponson

"Steroids and the Hall. I think we are seeing the writers change their mind on steroids and saying other than the big three (A Rod, Bonds, Clemens) we are going to let this guy's in. The big three IMO are going to continue to be on the outs with enough voters that I believe it will come down to the Veterans Committee for them."

This is completely ass backwards. Why would they let in every roider EXCEPT the only 3 who were locks to make the Hall even if they never juiced?

The trend is obvious, as the old guys fall away and the younger voters take over, they will get in. Probably in a year like 2021 with no real good new names. They will get more votes each year and make it around then.

obxyankeefan said:

Looking further down that list Omar Vizquel should get some votes for his defense. Matsui should stick around for 10 years at 30 or 40%, but never really make a run. Carl Pavano got something and eye while seeing his name written.

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I may be underestimating the credit that voters will give Matsui for his time in Japan, but I think your number is too high. I honestly wouldn't be completely blown away if he falls off on his first ballot.

tducey said:

This is next year's ballot:

2018 Potential Hall of Fame Ballot | Baseball-Reference.com

Jones and Thome may make it in 1st ballot. As to returning guys I think Hoffman makes it in. Got to think Bonds and Clemens will make it within the next 2-3 years as well.

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Speaking of a Jones in ATL....I am wondering what chances Andruw has not next year but in '18 or beyond?
His BA/OBP wasn't great but for a stretch was one of the best CF's in baseball.

The fact that Vlad isn't in is insane. Also Ortiz should be a 1st ballot HOFer.

I think Edgar is going to sneak in prior to Ortiz so Ortiz is CLEARLY and EASILY a 1st ballot (which he probably will be anyway). Or could be the other way around. Ortiz breaks the barrier and then Edgar gets in.

Edgar should get in. His OPS for a 6-7 year stretch was insane. Lifetime .933 OPS, Ortiz is .931 so very comparable players. Ortiz obviously played for the WAY bigger market and has the rings. If you flip flopped the teams and added the rings regarding Edgar/Ortiz I'd have zero doubt in my mind that Edgar would already be in.

Course I'm a homer too... but whatever.

Sharkonabicycle said:

I think Edgar is going to sneak in prior to Ortiz so Ortiz is CLEARLY and EASILY a 1st ballot (which he probably will be anyway). Or could be the other way around. Ortiz breaks the barrier and then Edgar gets in.

Edgar should get in. His OPS for a 6-7 year stretch was insane. Lifetime .933 OPS, Ortiz is .931 so very comparable players. Ortiz obviously played for the WAY bigger market and has the rings. If you flip flopped the teams and added the rings regarding Edgar/Ortiz I'd have zero doubt in my mind that Edgar would already be in.

Course I'm a homer too... but whatever.

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I absolutely think Edgar should be in, I just think Ortiz market, rings and all or his post season heroics are enough to push him in first. Him being the driving force behind that 3-0 comeback against the Yankees and winning the Red Sox their first WS in however long can't be overlooked.

Very cool gesture on Tim Raines part. Keri led a huge movement over the years to get Raines into the HOF.