Do You Have to Have Been Good at Baseball to Understand It?

Omar 382 said:

Nope. No problem with gay people. But you are a fag.

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Ahhhh...the stupidity of youth knows no bounds.

Villain said:

There are way too many baseball talking heads on TV who were really good at baseball and just say the dumbest stuff over and over. How many times have you facepalm'd listening to a hall-of-famer? Curt Schilling and John Smoltz come to mind. Experience is absolutely worth something. There are certain insights that can only be gleaned from a pro's perspective. Being worth something doesn't make it required.

There is something else to be said about understanding and looking at the game from a wider, more "macro" perspective that does not require a pro career.

See:
Andrew Friedman
Farhan Zaidi
Dave Dombrowski
Theo Epstein
Brian Sabean
Jim Mozeliak
Alex Anthropolous
Jon Daniels
etc

There are sooooo many very highly paid and respected MLB executives without playing experience beyond college (or sometimes even less than that). Brian Sabean has 3 World Series and he's not even considered a SABR guy - he's a "scout's" GM.

Yes, only someone who has crushed a 98mph fastball knows what it's like to crush a 98mph fastball. Not sure how much that helps you build a bullpen, construct a 40-man, or plan for the short and long term success of a franchise.

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Dave Dombrowski and I both got cut from the same baseball team. Given, it was like 25 years apart, but I'll take that list as a testament to my undervalued baseball insight.

Omar 382 said:

This is a common myth perpetrated by those who lack knowledge of the sports. "If you never were amazing at baseball then you don't know what you're talking about!" (I was actually pretty decent at baseball, but that's besides the point). The irony is that these same people never reached MLB, so by their theory, they don't know what they're talking about. So which is it?

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To understand sabers, statistics, etc... Of course not.

However, baseball is a game that has a lot of little intricacies that you can't possibly know about unless you played at a competitive level. Sure, you can understand most things, and that a certain hitter struggles with a certain pitch... this pitcher throws this pitch well with two strikes... you should shift the infield/outfield a certain way when this batter is up... all of that, you can learn.

However, to understand WHY a hitter struggles with a pitch from a mechanical standpoint. To understand why a pitcher is having a rough patch and what he is struggling with mechanically. Why does or doesn't a base stealer get good jumps? What should the catcher have called in that situation? Small intricacies like that cannot just be learned, if you never played at a competitive level. College or above... or some high school guys if they were smart enough at that age. There are some, no doubt.

Omar 382 said:

Since 1985 (the first year my high school entered the state tournament), St. Mark's High School of Wilmington, DE has won 14 of the 21 state championships.
The News Journal | Delawareonline (click "show 50 entries")

So, yeah I got cut my junior year. From the best baseball program in the state. Ask @mannyz if you don't believe me. That does not mean I suck. I was actually pretty damn good. In 2010, I made District All-Star for Newark National Little League, hit 5th in the lineup, and we came in third in the state tournament. The winner that year, Brandywine, made it to Williamsport if I remember correctly

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He is correct. St Marks was always the top or near the top in baseball. My kids went to Cab but played sports for Charter. Football Lax and Wrestling. Graduated in 20101 and 2011. My older son was 1st team all-state in Football and Lax. Wrestling he was always favored 1st or 2nd at the state tournament, but never won. ripped a knee one year, ripped a labrum another year, then got upset by a Cape wrestler who was a lot better than his record. It took it all out of him. Never the less he is flying big planes for the Air Force now, and loves his job. My 2011 grad still goes to UD and we don't know when that joy ride will end.

mannyz said:

He is correct. St Marks was always the top or near the top in baseball. My kids went to Cab but played sports for Charter. Football Lax and Wrestling. Graduated in 20101 and 2011. My older son was 1st team all-state in Football and Lax. Wrestling he was always favored 1st or 2nd at the state tournament, but never won. ripped a knee one year, ripped a labrum another year, then got upset by a Cape wrestler who was a lot better than his record. It took it all out of him. Never the less he is flying big planes for the Air Force now, and loves his job. My 2011 grad still goes to UD and we don't know when that joy ride will end.

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No shit. I'm at UD now (like literally right now I'm there). What year is he?

2 words.

theo Epstein

broncosmitty said:

McKeon - 11 year professional career.

Maddon - professional catcher.

Weaver - 14 year professional career.

McCarthey- player for the Yankeed and Cards.

Id qualify all as "good".

If your occupation is "baseball player", at any point in your life, without a doubt you were a good baseball player.

We're you talking bout Little League in the OP?

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I was a good ball player (semi pro), and got invited to minor league spring training. I never made it on a team. I learn many things there, but most of all; I leaned how GOOD each and every player was. Where I played before I was a superstar, when I reach the lowest level of professional baseball I couldn't make the team. I wish all the people who criticize the players could spend one day playing at a Major League level.

Omar 382 said:

No shit. I'm at UD now (like literally right now I'm there). What year is he?

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No one knows. He is pretty well known. He is Mattyz.

Iffster said:

If any of you "Nancys" in this thread throw like a girl and still are talking baseball....get the f ck out. If you crochet your own dresses...I don't care. If you do your significant others hair every morning...I don't care. But if you throw like a girl and wouldn't know Reggie Jackson from Michael Jackson.........get the hell out.

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Do you do anything physically competitive at all? I play in weekly racquetball leagues and I enter 3 or 4 tournaments a year. Does that make me less nerdy?

richig07 said:

To understand sabers, statistics, etc... Of course not.

However, baseball is a game that has a lot of little intricacies that you can't possibly know about unless you played at a competitive level. Sure, you can understand most things, and that a certain hitter struggles with a certain pitch... this pitcher throws this pitch well with two strikes... you should shift the infield/outfield a certain way when this batter is up... all of that, you can learn.

However, to understand WHY a hitter struggles with a pitch from a mechanical standpoint. To understand why a pitcher is having a rough patch and what he is struggling with mechanically. Why does or doesn't a base stealer get good jumps? What should the catcher have called in that situation? Small intricacies like that cannot just be learned, if you never played at a competitive level. College or above... or some high school guys if they were smart enough at that age. There are some, no doubt.

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Well that's just the difference between a coach and a GM. Former players are surely going to be way more likely to be better coaches. That's why the GM hires a manager and the manager hires coaches. Coaches interact and affect the game on a micro scale while the GM and Front Office handle the moves from a macro scale.

Theo Epstein isn't telling Joe Maddon what lineup to use or who to call from the bullpen. He's giving him a group of guys that he trusts Maddon to use to the best of their abilities.

Like I said, having personal experience is valuable, but it's not a prerequisite to being able to fundamentally understand and appreciate the game.

The analytics department probably isn't going to barge in on bullpen session and say "hey Lackey, you're falling off too far to the left every time you throw a fastball." But a scout or coach might be watching videos and notice that. At the same time, that scout or coach might not pick up on the fact that there's a statistical tendency showing up in Lackey's pitch selection that says "hey man, your spin rate is way down on your pitches and that might be why people are hitting you." Noticing that dip in spin rate might lead to a video session where a change in mechanics is noticed.

A smart ballclub uses stats and scouts.

Just one more point Omar. I know that it bothers you that some people think you are "you know" because you focus all your time and energy on sabermetrics and tend to ignore the physical side of the game. That is a problem you will have to overcome yourself. Good luck to you.

So, I assume, that unlike many little boys and even young men, your fantasy lies not in wishing you could play centerfield for the Yankees or pitch for the Phillies....but to be a statistician for a major league club? Not a terrible goal. However, I do admit that, in my mind, it conjures up a picture of Jonah Hill sitting in an office, in front of his computer, with an open box of donuts next to him. Me = Mickey Mantle. You = Jonah Hill. Oh well...different generations.

"Me=Mickey Mantle." This nig/ga

Omar 382 said:

"Me=Mickey Mantle." This nig/ga

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Omar representing !

Voltaire26 said:

I was a good ball player (semi pro), and got invited to minor league spring training. I never made it on a team. I learn many things there, but most of all; I leaned how GOOD each and every player was. Where I played before I was a superstar, when I reach the lowest level of professional baseball I couldn't make the team. I wish all the people who criticize the players could spend one day playing at a Major League level.

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So true. People have no idea just how good a lifetime AA ball player really is.

romeo212000 said:

So true. People have no idea just how good a lifetime AA ball player really is.

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I never played anything competitive, and I would never dream to tell someone who has how to play. But when I say "This guys sucks!", I am saying it with the understanding that he is REALLY GOOD. But next to a REALLY REALLY REALLY GOOD player, he sucks. He sucks in the MLB universe.

Just like when I say "I hate that guy!", I don't actually, literally, hate the guy. I "hate" him in a sports sense.

romeo212000 said:

So true. People have no idea just how good a lifetime AA ball player really is.

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Took my JVers to an A ball game tonight. Midwest League action, Jays and Dodgers affliates. We got to take a little tour of the stadium. Hit a little in the cage and walk around well before game time. I thought it was cool and I've played in that stadium before.

1st baseman for the Dodgers/Great Lakes Loons is an 18 year old kid. That really opened some young eyes tonight.

All 50 of the "kids" playing, damn good ball players imo. But the lack of expierience came thru a few times. And to me, expierience or a lack there of often trumps talent or a lack there of. And nobody should ever think they're above gaining expierience in the game. Even as a fan, like us.

Iffster said:

Me = Mickey Mantle. You = Jonah Hill. Oh well...different generations.

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Omar is way more likely to be a front office executive than you are to becoming a hall of fame baseball player.

Also, the real-life person that was the inspiratation for Jonah Hill's character is the first Front Office executive to switch major American sports. He's also a millionaire.

Will Paul DePodesta and Moneyball work in Cleveland?

Villain said:

Omar is way more likely to be a front office executive than you are to becoming a hall of fame baseball player.

Also, the real-life person that was the inspiratation for Jonah Hill's character is the first Front Office executive to switch major American sports. He's also a millionaire.

Will Paul DePodesta and Moneyball work in Cleveland?

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Yeah. I can tell by Omar's tact and writing ability that he is destined for great things. However, he might be in front of you in basic understanding of a discussion and how stupid it is to reply to one, when you lack the intelligence (btw, it is ''inspiration'') to do so. You see, Mr Protector of the Sabermetric Flame, Omar and I are separated by a significant number of years, age-wise. I was pointing out to HIM, that in my youth, I dreamed of being a baseball PLAYER (I picked Mantle...could have been Al Kaline)...while he dreams of being a front office exec like the Jonah Hill character. THUS, the mention of ''different generations''.

But hey, feel free to babble on. Protect young Omar if you feel he needs protecting. Hold the NEW STANDARDS aloft for all to see....or whatever the hell you are doing.


Question for both you and Omar. If either, or both, of you pro-create...will you teach that child how to play baseball, or will you, as soon as possible, get him/her involved in sports statistics? As adult men you enjoy and study numbers, percentages, algebra, etc....you'd thus realize the chances of any one particular child succeeding at pro sports is very low. Would you, therefore, even bother teaching your children sports? Perhaps going to other forms of physical exercise and activity? Perhaps even video games like MLB RBI will be replaced in the near future by Sabermetric video games? Perhaps Omar will find a way to rid baseball of having to deal with actual players on a field!!! Baseball existing in the Cloud!!! Am I making you dizzy with hope, Omar? LOL

Villain said:

Omar is way more likely to be a front office executive than you are to becoming a hall of fame baseball player.

Also, the real-life person that was the inspiratation for Jonah Hill's character is the first Front Office executive to switch major American sports. He's also a millionaire.

Will Paul DePodesta and Moneyball work in Cleveland?

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Pretty sure the odds are identical.

Villain said:

Do you do anything physically competitive at all? I play in weekly racquetball leagues and I enter 3 or 4 tournaments a year. Does that make me less nerdy?



Well that's just the difference between a coach and a GM. Former players are surely going to be way more likely to be better coaches. That's why the GM hires a manager and the manager hires coaches. Coaches interact and affect the game on a micro scale while the GM and Front Office handle the moves from a macro scale.

Theo Epstein isn't telling Joe Maddon what lineup to use or who to call from the bullpen. He's giving him a group of guys that he trusts Maddon to use to the best of their abilities.

Like I said, having personal experience is valuable, but it's not a prerequisite to being able to fundamentally understand and appreciate the game.

The analytics department probably isn't going to barge in on bullpen session and say "hey Lackey, you're falling off too far to the left every time you throw a fastball." But a scout or coach might be watching videos and notice that. At the same time, that scout or coach might not pick up on the fact that there's a statistical tendency showing up in Lackey's pitch selection that says "hey man, your spin rate is way down on your pitches and that might be why people are hitting you." Noticing that dip in spin rate might lead to a video session where a change in mechanics is noticed.

A smart ballclub uses stats and scouts.

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Yeah, definitely. I agree with that. We're on the same page.

I am just speaking from a former players point of view. An example... I have a good friend who is not a good athlete. However, he's the biggest stat nerd and baseball fan in the world. He cannot get enough of following all of those VERY deep saber metrics, that I hardly know what they mean. He would be a far better GM than myself, but when we're watching a game together. I see a few things that he doesn't, it's interesting. Meanwhile, he also schools the hell out of me with predicting how productive any given player will be in a season. So, I suppose it is somewhat an even trade off, when we're talking about being fans of the game.

You don't have to be good at any sport to understand it... who do you think funded all these things during the early 1900s (or 1800s for MLB)? Fat white people drinking beer on the couch.


Hmmm.... well actually I take this back. You have to be an Olympic level athlete to understand Curling. I still have no idea how that sport works. Just the thought of Googling it on Wikipedia seems like an arduous task.