Discipline

Bat 20 · Oct 10, 2015

Our Defense has been playing lights out! Offense is a dumpster fire. I have been the most optimistic, Pollyanna, homer on this board, but I am finally admitting to seeing the total lack of discipline on this team, and discipline starts at the top. Before anyone starts with the Dana isn't the one fumbling, committing personal fouls, etc. line, it starts with his coaching, his leadership, and what all of the coaches are willing to accept. I spent 30+ years in the military working with "kids" this age, and these "kids" had a much higher price to pay for their mistakes than merely winning or losing a football game. When given proper discipline these "kids" have always performed to the standard of their training with very limited mistakes. Unfortunately, when discipline wasn't enforced, the results were devastating. The people that provide the leadership that these young soldiers receive are paid a miniscule fraction of what a D-1 Head Football Coach, but that leadership still manages to instill discipline and an Esprit de Corps. Once again before someone who has never been in the military tries to say these young soldiers are coerced, I'll tell you that coercion rarely, if ever works. What works is inspiration. How many more years do we give Dana to produce a complete team that is both inspired and disciplined on offense, defense, and special teams? This Mountaineer team has played with heart, and they deserve better. Sorry for the rant, and forgive an old soldier for comparing soldiers to football players.

GoldRusher · Oct 10, 2015

Its all over but the firing. There will be a new HC in Morgantown next season imo.

Mike · Oct 11, 2015

Everyone needs to be careful what they wish for, the next HC could be worse.

There is one glaring piece to this puzzle that is missing, and has been missing for 3 years. We need a QB, Howard is not a division 1 starting QB. He is a usable back up QB, but not a starter. My biggest concern is, how bad are the ones behind him?

There is still 7 games left and I am getting concerned if we will finish above .500, with that said we need to let the season finish out before we start rushing to conclusions.

WVUDAD · Oct 11, 2015

There has been a lack of discipline and leadership from the day Holgorsen got the job. Some tried to blame his failings on previous coaches, but anyone with eyes could see that Holgorsen's team was not progressing though the season, players do not get better, yes they mature and get better on their own from game experience, but not from coaching. Watching this team is like watching a sandlot pickup game. We have lost two in a row now, have an offense that just can't get it done. As to no QB, Mike, the question is why? We have a coach who put several QBs into the pros, who runs a system that was said to make mediocre QBs great, why is there no QB in year 5 that can't throw a long ball, and the next question is why the QB we have is not used in a way that uses his strengths, we see that Howard can't throw long, but he can throw short and run very effectively, if you noticed last night, twice in the second half WVU ran and short passed right down the field and scored. I have made no secret, I do not like Holgorsen as a head coach, I do not see him as effective, every game he reminds me of Fraud in 13-9, so arrogant and hard headed that he runs the same plays over and over with the same result. I am NOT for firing during the season, or calling for coaches heads by flying stupid banners over the stadium, but at the end of the season the football program needs to be assessed, not just wins and losses, but what the progress from year to year, what the future looks like, and where we are headed. The way things look now, we may only win two more games.

GoldRusher · Oct 11, 2015

WVUDAD said:
There has been a lack of discipline and leadership from the day Holgorsen got the job. Some tried to blame his failings on previous coaches, but anyone with eyes could see that Holgorsen's team was not progressing though the season, players do not get better, yes they mature and get better on their own from game experience, but not from coaching. Watching this team is like watching a sandlot pickup game. We have lost two in a row now, have an offense that just can't get it done. As to no QB, Mike, the question is why? We have talent on this team a coach who put several QBs into the pros, who runs a system that was said to make mediocre QBs great, why is there no QB in year 5 that can't throw a long ball, and the next question is why the QB we have is not used in a way that uses his strengths, we see that Howard can't throw long, but he can throw short and run very effectively, if you noticed last night, twice in the second half WVU ran and short passed right down the field and scored. I have made no secret, I do not like Holgorsen as a head coach, I do not see him as effective, every game he reminds me of Fraud in 13-9, so arrogant and hard headed that he runs the same plays over and over with the same result. I am NOT for firing during the season, or calling for coaches heads by flying stupid banners over the stadium, but at the end of the season the football program needs to be assessed, not just wins and losses, but what the progress from year to year, what the future looks like, and where we are headed. The way things look now, we may only win two more games.

And you didn't even mention that it's year 5, we have had a full roster for some time now yet still do not have a punt return game......at all, and momentum killing mistakes and turnovers left and right due to the undisciplined play.

He has had ample time to correct these problems including recruiting/developing a capable QB but he has failed.
He is a solid OC for a program where the HC can tell him what he wants in certain situations and save Dana from Dana when it comes to overthinking but at this point in his career that's all he is... An OC, and I'm sorry but HC at WVU is not an internship, times up.

bbwvfan · Oct 11, 2015

Dana is the HC. He will take the accountability for his team's success and failures.

One cannot claim the defense is disciplined and the offense is not, and blame him for only failure. He has hired the defensive staff, he gets credit for the hires and for their success. Some on here thought the defense's success and improvement last year was a result of Tom Bradley. He is gone, and the defense is improved. He has moved on to UCLA, where they are below average.

Dana has failed to get a Division 1 QB. That is on him. Skyler is not a Division 1 QB. The future QB is being redshirted. You cannot win games with all of the TO's.

But no one can tell me Skyler's fumbles are the result of not being prepared...or lack of discipline. He is of limited physical attributes.

In the end, winning is what matters. If he fails to win, he will be let go.

The past two games have been very frustrating. The crowd was great last night. The TO's cost them the game.

And the Okie St punter was the MVP. Greatest performance I've seen since that kid from LSU a few yrs ago.

mad2mc · Oct 11, 2015

IMO, he needs to drop the OC title and concentrate on the entire team. Discipline has been lacking for some time. It didn't start occurring over the last 5 years.

Skyler Howard is not one of my favorites, going back to the Liberty Bowl. I think many of us knew what we had back then.

Mike · Oct 11, 2015

I agree with some of what you guys have put up here, and it is Dana's fault for not having a serviceable QB. He put all his eggs in the Ford Childress basket, and should have known he had a drinking problem and a grade problem.

I disagree with Howard can throw the short ball, he over threw and under threw everything all night and the games before. His accuracy is terrible.

I don't see us winning the next two games with him at QB, pull the redshirt, or give Crest a chance, I don't know if Crest is any more accurate.

Slaton10 · Oct 12, 2015

I don't think many understand what it means to fire a Head Coach...it's just not the Head Coach that goes...its the entire staff!!...because the "NEXT HEAD COACH" will bring in HIS guys..that's how it works..So when you say "Fire Holgorsen" then you are essentially saying you are displeased with the entire body of what this staff has done in 5 years. That means Offense, Defense, Special Teams and Recruiting..and you are Okay with blowing this years recruiting class, Okay with kids transferring out and Okay with another rebuild job that make take another 5 years...because as we have all said it on here Wv is not a hotbed for in state talent...

mad2mc · Oct 12, 2015

Nor for attracting top notch Head Coaches as some are blind to. The only miss I see was Butch Jones, but then again, anyone of us could recruit for a SEC team. It is a bigger attraction to go to any SEC team versus West Virginia.

I still say take away OC responsibilities. He needs to find somebody who shares a similar philosophy and turn over the reigns. Dawson left because he could not call his own game. Dana needs to game plan with his coaches and provide the final decision when others are in doubt. Sabah and Kiffin are dealing with this issue now.

Slaton10 · Oct 12, 2015

mad2mc said:
Nor for attracting top notch Head Coaches as some are blind to. The only miss I see was Butch Jones, but then again, anyone of us could recruit for a SEC team. It is a bigger attraction to go to any SEC team versus West Virginia.

I still say take away OC responsibilities. He needs to find somebody who shares a similar philosophy and turn over the reigns. Dawson left because he could not call his own game. Dana needs to game plan with his coaches and provide the final decision when others are in doubt. Sabah and Kiffin are dealing with this issue now.

I think there is truth in this comment...I definitely agree he needs to shake up how he gets the team ready for Saturday and how he manages the game...

WVUDAD · Oct 12, 2015

mad2mc said:
IMO, he needs to drop the OC title and concentrate on the entire team. Discipline has been lacking for some time. It didn't start occurring over the last 5 years.

Skyler Howard is not one of my favorites, going back to the Liberty Bowl. I think many of us knew what we had back then.

I will agree 100% that Holgorsen needs to hire an OC for next season, the HC needs to be in tune with EVERY facet of the game, currently, he "coaches" when we are on offense and turns to scripting the next offensive series when we don't have the ball. I think these problems can be fixed, but does Holgorsen have enough interest in the whole team??

WVUDAD · Oct 12, 2015

Slaton10 said:
I don't think many understand what it means to fire a Head Coach...it's just not the Head Coach that goes...its the entire staff!!...because the "NEXT HEAD COACH" will bring in HIS guys..that's how it works..So when you say "Fire Holgorsen" then you are essentially saying you are displeased with the entire body of what this staff has done in 5 years. That means Offense, Defense, Special Teams and Recruiting..and you are Okay with blowing this years recruiting class, Okay with kids transferring out and Okay with another rebuild job that make take another 5 years...because as we have all said it on here Wv is not a hotbed for in state talent...

I am torn on this, I am not for firing coaches without thought being put into it, that you do not fire a guy unless you know who you have in the wings to take his place. I do not think Holgorsen is the guy, I stand by my thoughts of a few years ago that you do not hire a guy with no HC experience at a top level school, a big time football school is NOT the place to learn the job. About all three facets of the game, the offense has been going backward the last two years, the STs are stagnant, and the defense has improved, are we moving forward? I don't think so, we are losing ground, unless something drastic happens, I see only two wins left on the schedule, Texas has been improving every week, KSU gave TCU all they wanted, TCU isnt the same team as last year, but still will beat us, Baylor will kill us, leaving KU and IAST as our possible wins. 5-6 in year five is NOT where we need to be. IF Holgorsen is fired and the RIGHT guy is hired, it would not be a five year rebuild, there is pretty good talent in place, and the RIGHT guy wouldnt miss a beat.

Slaton10 · Oct 12, 2015

WVUDAD said:
I am torn on this, I am not for firing coaches without thought being put into it, that you do not fire a guy unless you know who you have in the wings to take his place. I do not think Holgorsen is the guy, I stand by my thoughts of a few years ago that you do not hire a guy with no HC experience at a top level school, a big time football school is NOT the place to learn the job. About all three facets of the game, the offense has been going backward the last two years, the STs are stagnant, and the defense has improved, are we moving forward? I don't think so, we are losing ground, unless something drastic happens, I see only two wins left on the schedule, Texas has been improving every week, KSU gave TCU all they wanted, TCU isnt the same team as last year, but still will beat us, Baylor will kill us, leaving KU and IAST as our possible wins. 5-6 in year five is NOT where we need to be. IF Holgorsen is fired and the RIGHT guy is hired, it would not be a five year rebuild, there is pretty good talent in place, and the RIGHT guy wouldnt miss a beat.

I respect your point of view..its 5 years ...as with any program this is the time to evaluate whether its on the the right path or not...but I think your kidding yourself if a new staff is brought in that several of these kids eject themselves and go elsewhere...its just part of the process..a new coach and staff will have a different system..they are not their recruits ..the schemes may change enough that the kids on the roster don't fit the mold...alot goes into it...I am not saying that should scare an AD off from making a change..all I am saying its a big decision..its just not removing the Head Coach...I live here in Maryland..they have already lost 4 of their top recruits from this years class just in 24 hours..

Look even hiring a guy that is already on staff doesn't even work...When Stewart took over he lost 90% of Rich's staff..the only person that stayed was Casteel..

WVUDAD · Oct 12, 2015

Slaton10 said:
I respect your point of view..its 5 years ...as with any program this is the time to evaluate whether its on the the right path or not...but I think your kidding yourself if a new staff is brought in that several of these kids eject themselves and go elsewhere...its just part of the process..a new coach and staff will have a different system..they are not their recruits ..the schemes may change enough that the kids on the roster don't fit the mold...alot goes into it...I am not saying that should scare an AD off from making a change..all I am saying its a big decision..its just not removing the Head Coach...I live here in Maryland..they have already lost 4 of their top recruits from this years class just in 24 hours..

Look even hiring a guy that is already on staff doesn't even work...When Stewart took over he lost 90% of Rich's staff..the only person that stayed was Casteel..

With the ridiculous extension that Luck gave Holgorsen on the way out the door, it matters little what we think, as WVU can't afford to fire him and pay a new coach. BUT, losing records don't get it, and if a change is made and some recruits are lost, is there a great difference in five wins with Holgorsen and four with a new guy? As I said, I am NOT saying to can him, but he needs to be on a short leash.

GoldRusher · Oct 12, 2015

mad2mc said:
Nor for attracting top notch Head Coaches as some are blind to. The only miss I see was Butch Jones, but then again, anyone of us could recruit for a SEC team. It is a bigger attraction to go to any SEC team versus West Virginia.

I still say take away OC responsibilities. He needs to find somebody who shares a similar philosophy and turn over the reigns. Dawson left because he could not call his own game. Dana needs to game plan with his coaches and provide the final decision when others are in doubt. Sabah and Kiffin are dealing with this issue now.

That has been true in the past but then we are not in the BigEast anymore either where our league gets poached because we don't have money to keep/hire good coaches (WVU,Cincy,UL,).

I agree that an OC might help but then Dana has had that chance and refuses to do it, another reason I say good OC, bad HC. Good HC understands that move needs to be made, day 1 in most cases.

GoldRusher · Oct 12, 2015

I get the fear of botching a recruiting class but at the same time Florida, Michigan, Houston, Illinois, Kentucky,Cal, and dare I say it, even Pitt seem to have benefitted right away from a coaching move (2nd year for Cal but..)from a coaching move.

Sure it CAN backfire but if its the RIGHT hire (that move is on Lyons) then it can work out great as well.

bbwvfan · Oct 12, 2015

I guess that is why Lyons is paid the big bucks. It will be tough sledding trying to find a great HC interested in taking over the WVU program.

While I have no idea what the deep pocket boosters are saying about the current situation, my guess is that any decision on Dana's future will be determined by them as they are the main source of funding for his and his staff's income. If they want him gone after this season, they will come up with the money to pay his buy-out.

WVU is at such a disadvantage, I'm not sure how many great coaches would want to take it over. Recruiting requires a huge commitment by the coaching staff. Facilities are improving, but are behind all of our Big 12 members… and don't even try to compare them to PSU, tOSU, MD, VT, UK or UV…. the schools WVU competes against for regional recruits.

We have all been witness to the mess going on up at Pitt. They may have finally found their man, but only time will tell there.

A new coach may come in and make an immediate impact like what we've seen at UF. Or it could go the way of Nebraska. It is always a gamble.

The boosters and the AD will have to decide if they are comfortable with the future under the current staff, or feel a change would be better…

WVUDAD · Oct 12, 2015

Sitting here reading the after game interviews, Smallwood said DANA lets the two backs decide on who goes into the game........ THERE is discipline for you, a kid calling the coach by his first name, and the kids deciding which back goes into the game in OT....WOW

Slaton10 · Oct 13, 2015

WVUDAD said:
With the ridiculous extension that Luck gave Holgorsen on the way out the door, it matters little what we think, as WVU can't afford to fire him and pay a new coach. BUT, losing records don't get it, and if a change is made and some recruits are lost, is there a great difference in five wins with Holgorsen and four with a new guy? As I said, I am NOT saying to can him, but he needs to be on a short leash.

And that is it in a nutshell..and its a good observation...that IS the decision you have in front of you...what is the right one?..well, thats what we all get to banter about and then get to second guess when Lyon's if he does..pulls the trigger...

But I do believe in being consistent with my beliefs..as with Stewart there was enough of a sample size to determine if he was going to take the program to the next level..I feel the same about Dana..this team should be winning more ball games...he has probably the same level of talent if not more than Rich had for the Sugar Bowl team...

I am not say I am ready to fire him...I do like the way the team and the program is evolving..but it is time to win more than 7 games a year........and if Lyon's did make a change I would be okay with it..I would understand why...

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