Ranking the top NBA markets

steelparrot said:

Now that you cant deduct state income taxes paid from your federal taxes. The teams in Florida and Texas get a big leg up, neither has a state income tax.

Top rate in California is 12%, NY and NJ 9% vs 0% isnt a small thing.

You pay the state income taxes where the games are played, so half your income is taxed in the states where you play road games. But, with a 100 million dollar payroll those teams can stick about 5ish million dollars more in players pockets.

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well....like i said on the other page....say you play for the Clippers---- you of course have your 41 home games in Cali, but also road games in San Fran, "road games" for the Lakers, and Kings. So about 60% of your games in California which has a 12.3% top marginal rate. So about 7-8% after adjustments. After federal tax, agent fees, etc....its a pretty significant chunk of change.

flyerhawk said:

4 of 8 isn't exactly statistically compelling, especially given that the other examples are of players going to high tax states.

If you were so inclined you could also include Carmelo going to the Knicks. Given he already stated his preference to go to New York before the trade, I think makes it pretty clear that taxes weren't a factor for him.

And if you looked at any of those 9 player moves, can you reasonably argue that income taxes had any relevance in their decision? Chris Paul wanted to play with Rockets. If they were in California, do you think it would have mattered? And do you really think that Lebron went to Miami because of the taxes?

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I never did say that.

But, can you say that it didn't?

For example, why did Wade, Bosh and LeBron choose Miami over say, NY? Could it have been the taxes? Impossible to say for sure.

4 out of 8 or 9 may not be statistically significant, but when there are 5 teams out of 30 who play in states with no income tax and 4 of 9 superstar free agents have signed in those states, people who say it defintely doesn't matter to these guys aren't making a mistake.

Because although a lot more data is needed, early evidence suggests it just might.

tlance said:

I never did say that.

But, can you say that it didn't?

For example, why did Wade, Bosh and LeBron choose Miami over say, NY? Could it have been the taxes? Impossible to say for sure.

4 out of 8 or 9 may not be statistically significant, but when there are 5 teams out of 30 who play in states with no income tax and 4 of 9 superstar free agents have signed in those states, people who say it defintely doesn't matter to these guys aren't making a mistake.

Because although a lot more data is needed, early evidence suggests it just might.

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The problem is that the argument plays both ways. The state with the HIGHEST income tax rate has clearly been a destination for a long time.

I can't say that it has no impact. But I would like to see some better evidence to support the claim.

Has San Antonio been able to attract big name free agents? Or Dallas? Or Orlando? Heck has Miami, outside of the Lebron move?

And if you look at some other big name FA signings it gets murkier.

As I said, I'm sure it is a factor but it doesn't appear to be a very big factor.

tlance said:

For example, why did Wade, Bosh and LeBron choose Miami over say, NY? Could it have been the taxes? Impossible to say for sure.

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I know the 2 reasons Duh Heatles picked Miami over NY.

1. Miami weather > N.Y. weather
2. James Dolan

flyerhawk said:

The problem is that the argument plays both ways. The state with the HIGHEST income tax rate has clearly been a destination for a long time.

I can't say that it has no impact. But I would like to see some better evidence to support the claim.

Has San Antonio been able to attract big name free agents? Or Dallas? Or Orlando? Heck has Miami, outside of the Lebron move?

And if you look at some other big name FA signings it gets murkier.

As I said, I'm sure it is a factor but it doesn't appear to be a very big factor.

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I mean one concrete example in the last few years was LaMarcus Aldridge and the Spurs/Lakers.

But i think we can all 100% agree that Aldridge did not go to the Lakers and went to the Spurs based mainly upon tax rates.

BY FAR the most important part of all this is: Does this team have what it takes to win and can it pay me what I want?

Ability to win and cap space are the two biggest draws for free agents.

everything else is ancillary and far down the list. A free agent does not give a flying FUCK about the fact the Celtics and Lakers used to be really good before they were born, or the tax rate, or even the weather, or the facilities or the management team or the ownership etc....

Is this team ready to win? and can it pay me what I want to be paid?


everything else is so far down the line at this point it is almost irrelevant except in certain circumstances where a mogul like LeBron can actually take advantage of the Hollywood opportunities in LA to the tune of perhaps, hundreds of millions of dollars- that say- even a Kawhi Leonard would have no hope/no chance of even coming close to.



Is the place set up to win? Can they pay me what I want?

the specifics of each market pale in comparison to those 2 questions.

Wamu said:

I know the 2 reasons Duh Heatles picked Miami over NY.

1. Miami weather > N.Y. weather
2. James Dolan

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and they couldnt fit 3 guys- and Wade didnt want to leave Miami and at that point, Riley was not senile yet.

Wamu said:

I know the 2 reasons Duh Heatles picked Miami over NY.

1. Miami weather > N.Y. weather
2. James Dolan

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James Dolan should be #1.

Can't forget the Motor City.

WiggyRuss said:

and they couldnt fit 3 guys- and Wade didnt want to leave Miami and at that point, Riley was not senile yet.

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-Riley lost what he never had years ago
-Tristan > Whiteside
-Dan Gilbert is a genius
-LeHollywood's season will be a failure if he can't get the Lakers outta the 1st round
-Sexton was the bestest pick in the draft


Did I get it right?

flyerhawk said:

James Dolan should be #1.

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Yeah I wasn't sure what to list first.

Is the highest NBA market Denver?

Wamu said:

-Riley lost what he never had years ago
-Tristan > Whiteside
-Dan Gilbert is a genius
-LeHollywood's season will be a failure if he can't get the Lakers outta the 1st round
-Sexton was the bestest pick in the draft


Did I get it right?

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hmmmmm.....
1. Riley IS a hall of famer for good reason. He used to be one of the best coaches and GM's in the history of the league- the last few years though? throwing 79 mph gopher balls.
2. Tristan is better than Benchside
3. Dan Gilbert is a self-made billionaire....genius? ehh....in the way that I would say most self-made billionaire's are geniuses- then sure- actual genius like an Elon Musk? hell no
4. LeBron in his prime? "title or bust". The season is an abject failure for him unless he is holding that trophy at the end right? Thats what has been pounded in my head. LeBron? check!, his prime? check? TITLE OR BUST. As far as the first round goes, if he cant get the Lakers out of the first round, his legacy will take a humiliating hit. Seeing LeBron walk off the court and go fishing after the first round would be quite a sobering image.
5. Sexton was a great pick at #8, but hes far from the best pick in the draft. Incredible value for being a 2nd half of the lotto talent, but guys like Jackson, Ayton, Doncic, are just better talents no doubt

WiggyRuss said:

But i think we can all 100% agree that Aldridge did not go to the Lakers and went to the Spurs based mainly upon tax rates.

BY FAR the most important part of all this is: Does this team have what it takes to win and can it pay me what I want?

Ability to win and cap space are the two biggest draws for free agents.

everything else is ancillary and far down the list. A free agent does not give a flying FUCK about the fact the Celtics and Lakers used to be really good before they were born, or the tax rate, or even the weather, or the facilities or the management team or the ownership etc....

Is this team ready to win? and can it pay me what I want to be paid?


everything else is so far down the line at this point it is almost irrelevant except in certain circumstances where a mogul like LeBron can actually take advantage of the Hollywood opportunities in LA to the tune of perhaps, hundreds of millions of dollars- that say- even a Kawhi Leonard would have no hope/no chance of even coming close to.



Is the place set up to win? Can they pay me what I want?

the specifics of each market pale in comparison to those 2 questions.

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I don't agree whatsoever that Aldridge picked the Spurs for the taxes. He picked them as the better chance to win and better front office at that time.

I understand that as a Cleveland fan you refuse to believe the allure of the Celtics and Lakers as franchises, but it's no coincidence that they have won the most titles in the history of the NBA. They are the franchises that hire the best front office personnel most often and do what it takes to win more than other franchises that may shy away from spending. Spending ability will NEVER be equal between the Lakers and some middle of the country team that has drafted it's way into near contention.

Do you honestly think that players, given similar chances to win and get paid, will pick a franchise like the Grizzlies or Bucks over the Lakers or Celtics? (The Celtics are a bit of a different case with their fanbase's history of racism affecting perceptions).

Wamu said:

Is the highest NBA market Denver?

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Mile high (and getting higher wink wink nudge nudge...)

shopson67 said:

I don't agree whatsoever that Aldridge picked the Spurs for the taxes. He picked them as the better chance to win and better front office at that time.

I understand that as a Cleveland fan you refuse to believe the allure of the Celtics and Lakers as franchises, but it's no coincidence that they have won the most titles in the history of the NBA. They are the franchises that hire the best front office personnel most often and do what it takes to win more than other franchises that may shy away from spending. Spending ability will NEVER be equal between the Lakers and some middle of the country team that has drafted it's way into near contention.

Do you honestly think that players, given similar chances to win and get paid, will pick a franchise like the Grizzlies or Bucks over the Lakers or Celtics? (The Celtics are a bit of a different case with their fanbase's history of racism affecting perceptions).

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i said he did NOT pick the Spurs becuase of taxes- he picked them because (i) they were in a great position to win, and (ii) they could pay him what he wants.

Was taxes perhaps a SMALL SMALL SMALL factor? sure. Was Popovich a small factor? sure....was Buss' incompetence a factor? sure.

but the 2 main overiding and material factors?

1. Do they have a roster that can win and add major talent?
2. Can they pay me what I want?

WiggyRuss said:

i said he did NOT pick the Spurs becuase of taxes- he picked them because (i) they were in a great position to win, and (ii) they could pay him what he wants.

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Your wording sucked if that's the meaning you intended.

shopson67 said:

Spending ability will NEVER be equal between the Lakers and some middle of the country team that has drafted it's way into near contention.

.

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The Cavs can and have spent far more into the luxury tax than the Lakers. The Thunder are going to have the highest payroll in history. The Nets had the single biggest spending season in history before the Thunder will break that this year.

As far as ownership groups go, the Lakers ownership group is probably not in the top 10 of wealthiest owners in the league.

20-30 years ago, the money that many franchises spent was based upon their basketball revenue. The Lakers have, and still have the most revenue for a basketball team.

but when you have guys like Gilbert, Ballmer, Allen, Arison, Cuban etc. that could buy and sell the Buss' 5 times over, and treat their teams as hobbies rather than income generators, you see what we have been seeing- such as a team in a "middle of the country" that drafted its way to contention like OKC, spending more in a season than the Lakers have ever spent in a season since they have a billionaire owner that can go DEEP into the red for his basketball team.

WiggyRuss said:

hmmmmm.....
1. Riley IS a hall of famer for good reason. He used to be one of the best coaches and GM's in the history of the league- the last few years though? throwing 79 mph gopher balls.
2. Tristan is better than Benchside
3. Dan Gilbert is a self-made billionaire....genius? ehh....in the way that I would say most self-made billionaire's are geniuses- then sure- actual genius like an Elon Musk? hell no
4. LeBron in his prime? "title or bust". The season is an abject failure for him unless he is holding that trophy at the end right? Thats what has been pounded in my head. LeBron? check!, his prime? check? TITLE OR BUST. As far as the first round goes, if he cant get the Lakers out of the first round, his legacy will take a humiliating hit. Seeing LeBron walk off the court and go fishing after the first round would be quite a sobering image.
5. Sexton was a great pick at #8, but hes far from the best pick in the draft. Incredible value for being a 2nd half of the lotto talent, but guys like Jackson, Ayton, Doncic, are just better talents no doubt

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1. You've told this incorrect story before.
2. see # 1
3. Danny Boy will never live down that letter, dumb mistake.
4. Only you think it's title or bust for the Lakers this year.
5. I give you credit for being rational. Doesn't happen often.

And it's funny how quickly you went from never saying a critical word about LeHollywood to setting him up for failure this year. You're the only person not only on this site but in this country that thinks a 1st round exit will hurt his legacy in any way.

#wiggy-now-hates-lebron

NBA Owner's net worth:
1. Steve Ballmer (Clippers)- 40B
2. Paul Allen- (Blazers)20B
3. Mikail Prokhorov (Nets)- 9B
4. Mickey Arison (Heat)- 9M
5. Dan Gilbert (Cleveland)- 6.4B
6. Ann Kroenke (Denver)- 5.9B
7. Ricahrd DeVos (Magic)- 5.3B
8. Robert Pera (Grizz) - 5.2B
9. Tilman Fertita (Rockets) 4.4B
10. Tom Gores (Pistons) 4.0B
11. Mark Cuban (Mavs)- 3.7B
12. Josh Harris (Philly) - 3.6B
13. Herbert Simon (Pacers)- 3.2B
14. Tom Benson (recently deceased of the Pelicnas) 2.8B
15. Glen Taylor (Twolves) 2.8B
16. Tony Ressler (Hawks) 2.0B
17. Marc Lassry (Bucks) 1.7B
18. James Dolan (Knicks) 1.5B
19. Joe Lacob (GSW) 1.5B
20. Jerry Reinsdorf (Bulls) 1.5B
21. Larry Tanenbaum (Toronto) 1.5B
22. Gail Miller- (Jazz) 1.4B
23. Ted Leonsis (Wiz) 1.1B
24. vivek Ranadive (Kings) 700M
25. Jeanie Buss (Lakers) 30M Jerry Buss net worth: Dr. Jerry Buss was an American entrepreneur and professional sports team owner who had a net worth of $600 million. Jerry Buss earned the majority of his net worth as the owner of the Los Angeles Lakers basketball team. (hard to value since the team is actually owned by the Buss Family Trust which has , what ? 6 different members?)
26. Wyc Grousebeck (Celtics) -400M
27. Robert Sarver (Suns) - 400M
28. Michael Jordan (Hornets)- 1.7B
29. Peter Holt (Spurs) - 200M

WiggyRuss said:

The Cavs can and have spent far more into the luxury tax than the Lakers. The Thunder are going to have the highest payroll in history. The Nets had the single biggest spending season in history before the Thunder will break that this year.

As far as ownership groups go, the Lakers ownership group is probably not in the top 10 of wealthiest owners in the league.

20-30 years ago, the money that many franchises spent was based upon their basketball revenue. The Lakers have, and still have the most revenue for a basketball team.

but when you have guys like Gilbert, Ballmer, Allen, Arison, Cuban etc. that could buy and sell the Buss' 5 times over, and treat their teams as hobbies rather than income generators, you see what we have been seeing- such as a team in a "middle of the country" that drafted its way to contention like OKC, spending more in a season than the Lakers have ever spent in a season since they have a billionaire owner that can go DEEP into the red for his basketball team.

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That "willing to spend" billionaire owner in OKC just gave away Melo to dump his salary. That team will be dismantled as soon as they continue to struggle. Billionaires will grow bored with their playthings and sell them if they can't get them to win.

Lakers consistently spent to keep their players and add talent while in contention. I guess you could argue that the Cavs have done the same, just that they are only in contention with Lebron in town.

BTW, the third richest owner in the NBA (behind Allen and Prokhorov) is Philip Anschutz, who owns a stake in the Lakers at $10.3B in net worth. Your boy Gilbert is 7th at $3.9B. That would seem to make the Lakers ownership group MUCH richer than Cavs'.