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Series Thread: ECF: Boston Celtics vs Cleveland Cavs

trojanfan12

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you cant livein hindsight but you absolutely grade moves in hingsight

This is true.

However, using hindsight to grade how things actually turned out and using it to say that a team should have known better at the time and made a different choice are not the same thing.

You tend to do the latter much more than the former.

Teams can only go with the info they have at the time and hope they are right.

Case in point:

When the Lakers did the Dwight/Nash deal...nearly every "expert" said the Lakers were back and expected a Lakers/Heat finals.

Yet, when it blew up, you (and some of those same "experts") were acting like the Lakers should have known what would have happened and not made the trade.

When the Knicks took Porzingis, Knicks fans booed, "experts" said that Phil lost his mind and mocked the Knicks. The fact that he turned out to be far better than anyone thought, doesn't mean that the teams who didn't take him made a mistake.

It's just good on him that he turned out to be better than expected.

Where hindsight CAN be used as a legit criticism is when a team takes a flyer and it blows up on them.
 

TurnUpTheHeat

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nah its just funny that i happened to be absolutely right on whiteside as a waste and riley as being over the hill. i do take quite a bit of enjoyment out of those 2 spot-on predictions.


It would be correct if you said that Spoelstra often wastes opportunities to take advantage of what Whiteside does best.

As far as Riley, again, Im sure he aspires to have your resume and wisdom.
 

TurnUpTheHeat

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This is true.

However, using hindsight to grade how things actually turned out and using it to say that a team should have known better at the time and made a different choice are not the same thing.

You tend to do the latter much more than the former.

Teams can only go with the info they have at the time and hope they are right.

Case in point:

When the Lakers did the Dwight/Nash deal...nearly every "expert" said the Lakers were back and expected a Lakers/Heat finals.

Yet, when it blew up, you (and some of those same "experts") were acting like the Lakers should have known what would have happened and not made the trade.

When the Knicks took Porzingis, Knicks fans booed, "experts" said that Phil lost his mind and mocked the Knicks. The fact that he turned out to be far better than anyone thought, doesn't mean that the teams who didn't take him made a mistake.



:10:...
actually 100/100
 

WiggyRuss

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This is true.

However, using hindsight to grade how things actually turned out and using it to say that a team should have known better at the time and made a different choice are not the same thing.

.
I mean I get what you are saying--- but these guys arent paid millions upon millions of dollars to do what the national media generally thinks is the best idea.

I totally agree that there are some moves you cannot necesarily blame on a guy- but if they make the pick, or make the trade the results are attacehd to them. You dont pay guys millions of bucks to do what the national media thinks is the best thing to do.
 

TurnUpTheHeat

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I mean I get what you are saying--- but these guys arent paid millions upon millions of dollars to do what the national media generally thinks is the best idea.

I totally agree that there are some moves you cannot necesarily blame on a guy- but if they make the pick, or make the trade the results are attacehd to them. You dont pay guys millions of bucks to do what the national media thinks is the best thing to do.

True, but the NBA draft is usually basing an opinion on kids, 1 year removed from high school.
The ‘no brainers’ are usually supposed to be the top 5?
Yet, those are still often wrong.
Too many variables on most.

Not addressing all, but if I recall, most felt Winslow had no shot to still be on the board when the Heat picked.
He also was projected to be a high energy, defense first player, which he is.
His shot has improved, as hoped.

Health has been a problem.

He just turned 22.

Too soon to say he was an unworthy pick.
 

TurnUpTheHeat

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by the look of the clothes there - it was filmed the last time Riley knew what he was doing. lol.
hmm...

mind telling the audience why? you got inside info that he's gonna be a bust...?

I just watched him play. I think he is soft and going to be a bust. I dont think he is tough enough for the NBA. I think that Russell is the guy to take- possibly even over Towns. Russell might take a whilebecause its so damn hard to run a team right off the bat as a rook- but he has star written allover him- and itsa lot harder to find a dominant wing player then it is to find a really good big man-----its harder to find a GREAT big man- but those are basically non existent in todays NBA- and the Warriors just won with their best big man- sitting the bench most of the time- the Heats best big man played on theperimeter

If the Lakers waste their pick on a post up big man then they will have sabotaged this rebuild. Post up big men are just not the way to win in todays NBA unless you get Duncan. Is Okafor Duncan? HELL NO.

DeMarcus Cousins is a GREAt post up big that gets insane numbers and his team is awful.

Dont fall into the trap that going with the big is the best play- its not true in todays NBA...go with the best player- and thats definitely not Okafor.

Id tkae Mudiay or winslow before Okafor. Okafor is what? at best a little better version of Al Horford? Not worth it at all- take the guy with the ball in his hands- or even take the Kawhi leonard lite winslow...the perimeter wing that can guard anyone is very valuable in todays NBA.

Okafor- a post up big- thatis soft is DEFINITELY not the way to go. Watch- the Knicks will take him...it would be such a Knick move to be excited he "fell" and then reap the result.

Id go Towns, Russell, 1, 2 and not think twice....after that go for Mudiay or Winslow on preference...[/QUOTE]

and seriously...if someone really really likes Okafor trade down.....maybe you can still get Russell- or then you get Mudiay and or winslow.....

I think Winslow is very similar to Kawhi Leonard and Michael kidd gilchrist- I think he will be better and smoother offensively than MKG- but not quite a potential top 10 player like freaking the great kawhi leonard.

Its SO freaking valuable to have a guy who can guard the great wings in todays NBA. We just saw it in the Finals- It made all the difference having Iggy. It changed the series. For the Spurs having Kawhi able to contain LeBron changed the whole series. Jimmy Butler played great D on LeBron and was the main reason the Bulls were at one time up 2-1 with a 10 point lead late in game 4.

Winslow has such an extremely low chance of being a bust too. Mudiay I think has a high bust rate, but also has a ridiculously high ceiling- he kinda reminds me of Dante Exum in terms of quantifying his ceiling- but in terms of his game I think him and prime Deron Williams have a lot of things in comomn.

anyway....im freaking exhuasted....gnith



Like we said, hindsight is 20/20.
I did a 2 minute search and found twice where you compared Winslow
to Khawi, while also taking a shot at Horford.
 

LogicMan

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Just wanted to say hello after getting back from the hospital. At first it felt like a butt bruising but after xrays he confirmed that it was a full scale ass whooping.

He also asked why the hell did I allow them to feature Yabusule in the game. I could not answer him so he gave me some sleeping pills.
 

trojanfan12

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I mean I get what you are saying--- but these guys arent paid millions upon millions of dollars to do what the national media generally thinks is the best idea.

Who said anything about the national media?
 

WiggyRuss

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Who said anything about the national media?
well what "consensus" are you talking about then? its not like these guys divulge their draft boards before the draft.

I just watched him play. I think he is soft and going to be a bust. I dont think he is tough enough for the NBA. I think that Russell is the guy to take- possibly even over Towns. Russell might take a whilebecause its so damn hard to run a team right off the bat as a rook- but he has star written allover him- and itsa lot harder to find a dominant wing player then it is to find a really good big man-----its harder to find a GREAT big man- but those are basically non existent in todays NBA- and the Warriors just won with their best big man- sitting the bench most of the time- the Heats best big man played on theperimeter

If the Lakers waste their pick on a post up big man then they will have sabotaged this rebuild. Post up big men are just not the way to win in todays NBA unless you get Duncan. Is Okafor Duncan? HELL NO.

DeMarcus Cousins is a GREAt post up big that gets insane numbers and his team is awful.

Dont fall into the trap that going with the big is the best play- its not true in todays NBA...go with the best player- and thats definitely not Okafor.

Id tkae Mudiay or winslow before Okafor. Okafor is what? at best a little better version of Al Horford? Not worth it at all- take the guy with the ball in his hands- or even take the Kawhi leonard lite winslow...the perimeter wing that can guard anyone is very valuable in todays NBA.

Okafor- a post up big- thatis soft is DEFINITELY not the way to go. Watch- the Knicks will take him...it would be such a Knick move to be excited he "fell" and then reap the result.

Id go Towns, Russell, 1, 2 and not think twice....after that go for Mudiay or Winslow on preference...





Like we said, hindsight is 20/20.
I did a 2 minute search and found twice where you compared Winslow
to Khawi, while also taking a shot at Horford.[/QUOTE]
hey totally agree--- but what am i basing my opinion off of? watching a few games, and a bunch of articles I have read from people in the media- some of which are pure media guys, some of whcih are former players, scouts, gms, etc....

Me and you do not have access to the stuff that these guys are paid millions of dollars have access to.

When you have access to whole scouting departments, to whole statistical departments, inside information etc. you better be doing better than what the national media consensus is- which is usually what forms fans opinions for the most part.

I did like Winslow pre-draft----- but did I like him enough to turn down 4 first round picks and 2 2nd round picks? ---esp. one being a Brooklyn pick?
 

WiggyRuss

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This is true.


Case in point:

When the Lakers did the Dwight/Nash deal...nearly every "expert" said the Lakers were back and expected a Lakers/Heat finals.

Yet, when it blew up, you (and some of those same "experts") were acting like the Lakers should have known what would have happened and not made the trade.

When the Knicks took Porzingis, Knicks fans booed, "experts" said that Phil lost his mind and mocked the Knicks. The fact that he turned out to be far better than anyone thought, doesn't mean that the teams who didn't take him made a mistake.

It's just good on him that he turned out to be better than expected.

Where hindsight CAN be used as a legit criticism is when a team takes a flyer and it blows up on them.
I totally disagree-- Ithink you absolutely fry the Lakers for the Nash choice and give the Knicks tons of credit for the Porzinigis choice.

Just because your "experts" whoever they are, lauded or derided a pick means nothing. You grade a move on how it turns out--- not how what "experts" - and i am not even sure what you refer to when you say "experts"--- what are you referring to?

Like i said- these guys are privy to so much more information- to health records, to personal interviews, to statistical analysis, they have teams of scouts etc.....if they arent doign better then the "experts"- whoever that is- then they will soon be one of those "experts" themselves.
 

TurnUpTheHeat

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well what "consensus" are you talking about then? its not like these guys divulge their draft boards before the draft.







Like we said, hindsight is 20/20.
I did a 2 minute search and found twice where you compared Winslow
to Khawi, while also taking a shot at Horford.
hey totally agree--- but what am i basing my opinion off of? watching a few games, and a bunch of articles I have read from people in the media- some of which are pure media guys, some of whcih are former players, scouts, gms, etc....

Me and you do not have access to the stuff that these guys are paid millions of dollars have access to.

When you have access to whole scouting departments, to whole statistical departments, inside information etc. you better be doing better than what the national media consensus is- which is usually what forms fans opinions for the most part.

I did like Winslow pre-draft----- but did I like him enough to turn down 4 first round picks and 2 2nd round picks? ---esp. one being a Brooklyn pick?[/QUOTE]



You said you would take him 3,4.
Obviously teams have private workouts and interviews, but pretty much every draft, there are no huge surprises at the top.

Bottom line, if multiple teams felt the Celts offer wasn't worth giving up a top 10 pick, then you have to assume they had valid reasons.
 

WiggyRuss

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hey totally agree--- but what am i basing my opinion off of? watching a few games, and a bunch of articles I have read from people in the media- some of which are pure media guys, some of whcih are former players, scouts, gms, etc....

Me and you do not have access to the stuff that these guys are paid millions of dollars have access to.

When you have access to whole scouting departments, to whole statistical departments, inside information etc. you better be doing better than what the national media consensus is- which is usually what forms fans opinions for the most part.

I did like Winslow pre-draft----- but did I like him enough to turn down 4 first round picks and 2 2nd round picks? ---esp. one being a Brooklyn pick?




no- the bottom line is that they all screwed up.

its like the whiteside thing- you keep using the fact that other teams offering him a max justify the Heat doing it---- so your argument is-- hey- we were wrong, but other people were wrong too?

cmon now.
 

WiggyRuss

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tonights game is the biggest of the series.

Again- i have no clue what is going to happen. Id like to think the Celtics young guys will continue to struggle on the road but i think they got a wake up call the other day and will come out fighting extremely hard.

I really believe who ever wins this game wins the series.
 

LogicMan

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tonights game is the biggest of the series.

Again- i have no clue what is going to happen. Id like to think the Celtics young guys will continue to struggle on the road but i think they got a wake up call the other day and will come out fighting extremely hard.

I really believe who ever wins this game wins the series.


Its a big game. Its especially a big game for the Cavs to hold serve. I just hope I dont see more of Yabusule and Munroe.
 

TurnUpTheHeat

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tonights game is the biggest of the series.

Again- i have no clue what is going to happen. Id like to think the Celtics young guys will continue to struggle on the road but i think they got a wake up call the other day and will come out fighting extremely hard.

I really believe who ever wins this game wins the series.


Series is now back to pick ‘em.
I def think Cavs might win series, but ill still take Celts if u want to bet something?
 

TurnUpTheHeat

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no- the bottom line is that they all screwed up.

its like the whiteside thing- you keep using the fact that other teams offering him a max justify the Heat doing it---- so your argument is-- hey- we were wrong, but other people were wrong too?

cmon now.


I don’t think the 2 are comparable.
The draft is a crapshoot with 18-19 year old kids.
Plus the picks that were offered are total unknown.

Teams that blow it in FA is much worse, especially if the player involved is someone current on your roster.

As far as Whiteside, league leader previous 2 seasons.
He can play.
The issue seems to be between Riley and Spoelstra.
 
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WiggyRuss

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Series is now back to pick ‘em.
I def think Cavs might win series, but ill still take Celts if u want to bet something?
I really have no clue who wins tonight.

The Celtics are definitely the more athletic and deeper team.

I think Lue actually made a decent adjustment playing Nance Jr. and Thompson more- getting size on the court- and athletic ability on the court.


It just totally depends on the Cavs mentality. Game 1 they came out lazy and disinteretsed. Game 2 it was different- but everything changed after LeBron went out with the concussion.

Game 3 the Cavs actually played.

If the Cavs think game 4 is going to be easy and like game 3 since its at home they are done for. If they stay vigilant i think they will be okay.

The Cavs are a team that seems to face adversity better than most- and they have faced that adversity already this postseason- against Indiana, and then against boston down 2-0. The Celtics are a young team and really have not faced much adversity this postseason. They have never been down in a series.

If the Cavs can get the game tonight- and get the momentum- the Celtics will be facing true adversity for the first time all post season- going home for a game 5 against the Cavs that is a must win for them if you ask me.

Now- i think there is a very solid chance the Celtics win tonight- id slightyl favor the Cavs but not by much-----

but if the CAvs can pull off the win and get the momentum and start getting the Celtics to question themselves a little bit- the Cavs will win in 6.

it all comes down to tonight if you as kme- and i think tonight is a coin flip.
 

TurnUpTheHeat

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I really have no clue who wins tonight.

The Celtics are definitely the more athletic and deeper team.

I think Lue actually made a decent adjustment playing Nance Jr. and Thompson more- getting size on the court- and athletic ability on the court.


It just totally depends on the Cavs mentality. Game 1 they came out lazy and disinteretsed. Game 2 it was different- but everything changed after LeBron went out with the concussion.

Game 3 the Cavs actually played.

If the Cavs think game 4 is going to be easy and like game 3 since its at home they are done for. If they stay vigilant i think they will be okay.

The Cavs are a team that seems to face adversity better than most- and they have faced that adversity already this postseason- against Indiana, and then against boston down 2-0. The Celtics are a young team and really have not faced much adversity this postseason. They have never been down in a series.

If the Cavs can get the game tonight- and get the momentum- the Celtics will be facing true adversity for the first time all post season- going home for a game 5 against the Cavs that is a must win for them if you ask me.

Now- i think there is a very solid chance the Celtics win tonight- id slightyl favor the Cavs but not by much-----

but if the CAvs can pull off the win and get the momentum and start getting the Celtics to question themselves a little bit- the Cavs will win in 6.

it all comes down to tonight if you as kme- and i think tonight is a coin flip.


I agree, but that didnt address the series bet.

$1000 vcash, 7 day avi?
 
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